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Pakistani-Canadians: Falling below the poverty line

Published May 16, 2012 11:49am


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Pakistan-born immigrants are the new face of poverty in urban Canada. The Canadian census revealed that 44 per cent of Pakistan-born immigrants fell below the poverty line making them the second most poverty prone group of immigrants in Canada.

While they may project an aura of opulence during their visits back home, their life in Canada, however, is often full of struggle and frustration. Thousands of Pakistani trained engineers, doctors, and PhDs are driving taxis or are working as security guards in large cities. In fact, one in three taxi-drivers in Canada was born in either India or Pakistan. Several others are unemployed thus becoming a burden on Canadian taxpayers.

The latest Census data for income for 2005 revealed that Pakistan-born immigrants reported the second highest incidence for the low-income cut-off, a proxy for poverty line in Canada. In comparison, only 18 per cent of  India-born immigrants in Canada reported being a low-income person or belonging to a low-income economic family. Immigrants born in the United Kingdom, Portugal, Italy and Germany reported the lowest incidence of poverty in Canada.

Source: 2006 Public Use Microdata File, Statistics Canada.

Unlike in the Middle East where the Arab governments do not allow assimilation of migrant workers, the Canadian government and the society to a large extent does not create systematic barriers that may limit the immigrants’ ability to succeed and assimilate in Canada. This is not to suggest that immigrants face no barriers at all in Canada. They in fact do. For instance, Pakistan-trained doctors cannot practice medicine without completing further training in Canada. The shorter duration of medical training in Pakistan necessitates the additional certification for doctors. Engineering graduates from Pakistan, however, face no such barrier because the engineering curriculum and the duration of training in Pakistan is similar to that in Canada.

Despite the opportunities (and constraints), Pakistani-Canadians have not prospered as much as immigrants from other countries have. In 2005, wages earned by Pakistan-born immigrants were on average 70 per cent of the wages earned by those born in Canada. In comparison, wages earned by the India-born immigrants were 86 per cent of the wages earned by Canadians. At the same time, immigrants born in America earned 20 per cent more in wages than those born in Canada. Similarly, UK-born immigrants also reported on average higher wages than that of Canadian-born.

Source: 2006 Public Use Microdata File, Statistics Canada.

Because of lower wages, the Pakistan-born immigrants reported as one of the lowest home-ownership rates. Only 55 per cent of Pakistan-born immigrants reported owning their homes. In comparison, 75 per cent of the India-born immigrants owned their homes. At the same time, while only 12 per cent of the India- and Philippines-born immigrants had never worked in the past, 22 per cent of the Pakistan-born immigrants in Canada reported never being in the workforce.

The difference in wages, home-ownership rates, and employment rates between immigrants from India and Pakistan extend beyond the economic spheres. For instance, Pakistani-born immigrants live in large-sized families. Whereas only 13 per cent of India-born immigrants live in households of five persons or more, 44 per cent of the Pakistan-born immigrants live in households with five or more people. Given the lower wages, high unemployment rates and rental units, Pakistan-born immigrants experience severe crowding at homes where the number of residents per room is perhaps the highest owing to the large family sizes.

Given similar cultural endowments, education, and language skills, it is important to explore why Pakistan-born immigrants in Canada have lagged behind their Indian counterparts. The Indian diaspora is much larger in size and has been established in Canada for over a longer period, which has allowed immigrants from India to benefit from the social networks required to establish oneself in employment markets.

While immigrants from Pakistan lack the social networks necessary for success with employment, I would also argue that they suffer from a self-imposed identity crisis. After arriving from Pakistan, many male immigrants feel threatened by the Canadian liberal values, which empower their children and women. Suddenly the head of the household cannot dictate the way he did in Pakistan. Instead of embracing the change that empowers their families, several male immigrants end up in a hostile standoff with their families that sometimes lasts for decades. At the same time, religious leaders, which are almost always imported from back home to serve in mosques in Canada, preach orthodoxy to the parish, further confusing the struggling males.

With turmoil at home and bleak employment prospects outside, Pakistan-born male immigrants struggle with the decision to stay in Canada or return to Pakistan. Children and wives are often shipped back to Pakistan for prolonged periods while the males continue struggling in the job market. While their children see themselves as Canadians, the Pakistan-born male immigrants spent decades figuring out how to cope with their hyphenated identity, i.e., Pakistani-Canadian.

The limited success of (mostly Asian and African) immigrants in the economic spheres and their modest assimilation in the mainstream Canadian culture has prompted the right-wing groups to launch campaigns against immigration to Canada. While opponents of immigration are mostly naïve and their recommendations to reduce immigration border on lunacy, the fact remains that huge changes in the Canadian immigration policies are already taking place. In Saskatchewan, for instance, the provincial government on May 2 has changed the law that now prohibits immigrants from sponsoring their extended family members unless they secure a “high skill” job offer before arrival.

Since 2001, Pakistan has lost the most in its share of supplying immigrants to Canada. Pakistan was the third largest source of immigrants to Canada in 2001 supplying 6.1 per cent of the total immigrants. However, by 2010 Pakistan’s share of immigrants declined by 71 per cent. Pakistan is no longer even in the top 10 sources of immigrants for Canada. At the same time, the Philippines experienced a 153 per cent increase in its share of immigrants making it the biggest source of immigrants to Canada in 2010.

Source: Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

While there is no shortage of applicants in Pakistan, it is hard to establish the precise reason for the declining number of immigrants. It could be that the dismal performance of Pakistan-based immigrants may have prompted the government to reduce the intake from Pakistan. It may also be true that the exponential increase in violence and militancy in Pakistan may have made the task of verifying credentials and identifying future citizens much more difficult.

Over the next 50 years Canada will need millions more immigrants. The current and expected fertility rates in Canada suggest that immigration is the only possible way of ensuring enough workers needed for economic growth and to keep solvent Canada’s security net. Pakistan-born immigrants had the chance to excel in Canada and pave the way for future generations of enterprising immigrants. Instead, Pakistan-born immigrants became the face of Canada’s urban poverty.  Their dismal performance in Canada and the spread of religious fanaticism back home will most likely further reduce immigration from Pakistan.

Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is the Associate Dean of research and graduate programs at the Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University in Toronto. He can be reached by email at

The views expressed by this blogger and in the following reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of the Dawn Media Group.


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Murtaza Haider is a Toronto-based academic and the director of

He tweets @regionomics

The views expressed by this writer and commenters below do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of the Dawn Media Group.

Comments (528) Closed

TRUTH May 19, 2012 12:07am
doesnt agree with your point that they are sharing the progress.These countries(canada, australia, america and uk) only want or allow skilled people to come to their country to get benifitted from their skills and to compete with other rising country in the east.Yes they are allowing some aslyum seekers to settel in but they are illlegal entrants and mostly not from pakistan or india.And secondly they share markets to get bigger markets not the vice versa.But now they looking traped in their own plans.
Lahore_a May 18, 2012 11:39pm
The good news is we are doing better than Vietnamese,Indonesians,Malaysians,Singaporeans etc. These are the other Eastern Asians. We are close behind Iranis,Arabs. closer to Chinese too. If Chinese in Canada are not doing well -which is obvious from this report- then Canada may need help very soon. Chinese are known as moneyed people in Canada. Whether from mainland or the tiny Hong Kong. There is something not right about this report which puts Chinese close to Pakistanis and Portuguese doing better than Canadians.
Imran Haider May 18, 2012 10:20pm
With all due respect here, first we have to see what we are talking about here…Religion, culture, values? Do we, as Pakistanis, know what these actually are and what they mean to us? Seriously, let’s weigh the situation of Pakistan as it stands today. You cannot do anything or take one step into any government office there without bribing even the doorman. Need light? Sure but you’ll have to pay a price just short of giving up your first-born. As civil war breaks out across the country people living in privileged areas happily live in a cocoon of fantasies and lies that they think foolishly is impenetrable. Now if you feel the burn and you want out where can you turn to when most of the world is aware of your shortcomings? Canada was a top choice when I was there 12 years ago and still is. Why? Well in Canada we have the freedoms that we took for granted at one time in our own country, mind you we ignored their disintegration until our proverbial bandage solutions were just not cutting it anymore. Canada offered us a home where we did not have to suffer through lack of justice and could practice our religion and culture without persecution, but perhaps we are not used to these comforts. Where we came here to escape our country’s fails, we have begun to create them here as well, but what we need to realize is that we are Canadians now and must embrace our new home within the bounds of our religion and identity, otherwise there was no point in coming here. Canada has always been known as the great melting pot, but we refuse to melt and be humble, as we have been told as Muslims to be. If we want to know how we should live and how we should conform, we should look to the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Never has there been a man who lived his life in complete surrender and related to so many people from so many walks of life on so many levels (He is still known as the most influential personality in history). If we learned to live our life simply and honestly then we would not have these issues, more or less, anything would be enough. In this life of overspending and dreams of greatness we forget that we are human beings and our Creator is watching our every move, so don’t be idle, MOVE...Learn, apply, adapt and follow His words to insure success…Let’s pray all together that Allah gives us Guidance. Ameen. Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah; then He will inform them about what they used to do. (Quran - 6:159) And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. (Quran 3:103) And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute and [thus] lose courage and [then] your strength would depart; and be patient. Indeed, Allah is with the patient. (Quran - 8:46)
Guest May 18, 2012 08:01pm
With due respect, Darwin's theory has been rejected by the modern science. Trying to take lesson from a false theory that has been criticized and officially rejected by all modern scientists will go in vain!
GoodDeedsLeadTo May 19, 2012 12:02am
This article has given some folkes a place to enter self serving comments, waltch out!
Misra May 16, 2012 10:28am
Pakistanis are intelligent and hard working, and deserve their right to migrate to Canada (or any other country).
human May 16, 2012 09:58am
Breeding like fly is responsible for poverty..more the people to feed greater the poverty and substandard lifestyle
FRA May 16, 2012 02:12pm
Start from scratch with dedication, hard work and ambition but without ego and big expectations; the first few years will be a little difficult but once you reach a certain level (on average 8-10 years), the phase beyond that will be highly rewarding.
Javed May 18, 2012 10:50pm
Well said brother - you nailed this one. This is the message we need to communicate to all Immigrants.
Amer May 18, 2012 10:02pm
God bless you, your suggestions are very power full and positive. I am Pakistani-Canadian and has been living since 2002. I have Agriculture degree from Pakistan and worked hard since landed in Canada. Now with the Grace of Allah, I am working as General Manager in a company. My wife is a medical doctor and doing residency as Pediatrician. I am 100% agreeing with you, that just avoid to live among the desi community. It might be the cause of our success that we didn't live in desi community in the big city. We moved very begining in the small town, where I started the job related to my agriculture profession.
s shah May 16, 2012 03:44pm
As a Pakistaniliving in Canada for 30 years. I entirely agree with your writer's analysis. The hard truth is that Canadian society is a very closed society, although it does not look that way from the outside. One has to be like them, share their jokes, know their social codes and cues and their preoccupations and talk with their accent, or one is shut out. Just as in Pakistan, this society has its own internal power structure and its internal networks of contact. Even assimilation does not always help, (although it is better than not assimilating). Most of the Pakistani "elite" here live here for a few years and then obtain jobs in the middle east as it is difficult to get jobs here, in a contracting economy without social networks and without being a native born Canadian.
Taxi Driver May 16, 2012 03:52pm
Dear Taimoor I have added my comments in brackets after your post: Then why an engineer, doctor or Phd is hesitant to become taxi driver or security gaurd in Pakistan. {In Canada an honest and hard working taxi driver can earn enough to meet his basic needs of food, education, shelter, utilities etc; this in Pakistan is unlikely and I for one would not like to live in Shireen Jinnah Colony) They can be honest and hardworking here as well. {a mighty challenge, traffic police, extortion, inflation and by being in a basket of rotten apples it's easy to become rotten also} Its not just honesty and hardwork. Don't you think we can have more honest life in Islamic Republic of Pakistan. { Yes and No } I think it is more about dollars or tax exempted income. {If its about dollars, then it's a sad state of affairs that a doctor/engineer can earn more driving a cab in Canada, compared to practising their profession in Pakistan) And my dear job titles as well as education does matter and it is a fact that we are lagging behind in it. So let us try to overcome our weaknesses. { I agree that education does matter, but I disagree regarding job titles, this should not matter}
Azeem May 16, 2012 10:44am
An eye opener!
Tauheed Ahmed May 18, 2012 08:35pm
CanadianMuslim's reply and your response indicate that you are both equating receiving government benefits with actually earning an income by doing a business or a job. This is exactly the kind of thinking that Pakistanis in Canada have slipped behind immigrants from other countries (and indeed, behind the billions of other people in rich and poor countries who dont consider handouts to be income). Please try to change your way of thinking. That is what "ghairat mandi" is about, not the bogus "ghairat-mandi" that Pakistanis love to talk about so much when bullying their wives and daughters as described in the article..
Babajaan May 18, 2012 09:27pm
Alaikum Salam Saba; You are a shinning star for our Pakistani community who upheld her goals and achieved them despite all hardships and sacrifices. You have achieved where most people give up and are an example to follow. After hard; there is ease. Allah swt doesn't let your effort go to waste and even if it feels like that sometimes; it is only because HE swt wants to make you more stronger. Excellent and inspiring effort for many who have lost their ways. I did too for a short while but got on strong footing and have never looked back. We are all proud of you Saba!! Wasslam Babajaan Wassalam
Farooq May 18, 2012 08:46pm
Enough self loathing. Now let's get back to work.
Faisal Janjua May 16, 2012 10:03am
There are less pakistanis in Canada than indians and the percentage data is throwing the numbers off, for instance, Group A: 1 of 2 is 50% and Group B: 500 of 1000 is 50%, so if one person of group A is under the poverty line, 50% of that group is under the poverty line but if 100 of Group B is under poverty line, only 10% are under pverty line. These numbers are exagerrated.
Madhu Murthy May 16, 2012 03:43pm
Very well said Mr. Singh. As a South Indian, I am a great admirer of the Sikh work ethic. It is all very easy to point fingers at the system and give excuses for not putting out the right effort. After all, nobody forced you to come here.
Tahir May 16, 2012 11:31am
The data from the year 2005 has been used in this article and it is 2012 now. The article also claims that thousands of Professionals are driving taxis without any statistical data to back it. This article is good about 6 years ago but useless in 2012.
Diziak May 18, 2012 08:12pm
It’s certainly telling when an Associate Dean of research and graduate programs at the highly-regarded Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson, turns in a D-minus grade article. Surprising, since Mr Haider happens to be well-positioned to relate, equate with and inform what would otherwise be a splendid and much needed article. Instead, we have a writer with a penchant for the banal, obtuse correlations and flimsy presumptions. It’s surprising that the two biggest barriers to entry for New Canadians, of Pakistani origin are not even cursorily mentioned in this article. Language and culture remain the greatest inhibitors of enculturation for this demographic. In a country that trips over itself to promote its mosaic social fabric, we continue to see a perpetuation and deepening of traditions and a culture that very largely is incompatible with Canada. Here as well, Mr Haider chooses to avoid any critical analysis of this, and instead handily dives into the right-wing movement to stem immigration. The bemoaning of Saskatchewan’s experienced-class immigration policies have little relevance to the article and simply provide the reader with the feeling that Mr Haider is on whipping boy streak. Skilled immigration shifts are going to be the way moving forward everywhere, this does not detract from immigration on humanitarian grounds – but does stem the tide of family reunification, where already poor circumstances for the anchor immigrant bringing in more potentially-unskilled migrants into the workforce. The comparison between the outcomes of immigrants from Pakistan and India, should have given Mr Haider pause to delve deeper into the root cause of the disparity – instead, the whipping boy streak continues, and he goes on the bemoan the positive outcomes experiences by immigrants from Western countries. Talk about the gift of stating the obvious. For obvious reasons, immigrants from western countries do fare better – but where Mr Haider does a great disservice to the immigrant population from the developing world is not speaking to the tenacity, resilience and overall adaptability of very diverse people into a very well-defined new home. Family sizes are a perfect example of the impact culture and tradition have on this population, larger families account for greater drain on resources for an already fatigued bread-winner. A simple walk through one of Toronto’s deep pockets of immigrants from Pakistan, Thorncliffe will immediately clue you into some of the root causes of this disparity in outcomes: Lack of integration, language barriers, and resistance to locate in the hundreds of other locations without populations that perpetuate the cycle of intransigence, single-family bread-winners, very orthodoxly clothed women and mal-adjusted children. One of the more specious arguments is that the Indian diaspora is better positioned because of networks, whereas the contrary is true – Pakistani communities have deeper, richer and stronger networks primarily rooted in cultural and religious ties. As the Indian diaspora is diverse religiously as it is culturally, there is greater sense of detachment and individualism. Mr Haider does touch briefly upon the impact that the culture-shock has on immigrants from Pakistan, especially males. With any culture, the shock is predictable and expected – this clash of civilizations is exacerbated by the fact that the men traditionally play such strong domineering roles in their families. The unrelenting dominion over family threatens the mental health of not only the wives and children, but the men as well. The ultra-orthodoxy preached by the Maulvis and Mullahs in the local mosques does simplify these ‘confused’ men’s lot in their new life in Canada. Immigrants from Pakistan need to evaluate how best they are positioned to contribute to the economic fabric of Canada, as well as strengthening the multicultural mosaic of a Country made up of diverse citizens. The path to citizenship is strewn with failed attempts; it is the resilient, adaptable and open-minded that will make it in Canada.
FACTCHECK May 16, 2012 03:30pm
I am a Pakistani & A Muslim and I am an executive with one of the largest Telecommunications companies here. In our circle alone we have heads of Medical Departments, CEOs, High Ranking Officials in City Planning, MLAs, City Government, Countless many running successful MULTI location Business in Retail, Finance, and Hospitality. The CEO of Western Canada's largest Engineering Firm is a Pakistani. For 32 years, yes count it, 32! years a Pakistani was in charge of City Planning in Alberta. Just this past month a Pakistani was elected as an MLA, a MUSLIM is mayor of a Major Canadian City, The largest N. American Islamic School (Elementary/Highschool) is in Edmonton, Canada, One of the OLDEST Masjids(the Oldest by some accounts, 2nd oldest by others) is Safely restored and kept on display at Fort Edmonton Park (a living Museum) Muslims, including Pakistanis are FREE here to do what they want and pursue their dreams. Those that come here as Doctors and can't get a job and join the Taxi field, is what they settled with, however if attempted it's truly EQUAL opportunity to get ahead here. Most people don't go around flaunting their success, and research like this is SO FLAWED because I never entered into any survey or have been counted, and neither have tens of thousands of other Pakistanis. Its easy to complain when you fail, but try WORKING HARD and you will find no one is holding you back, but yourself. and research like this doesn't even celebrate the MANY MANY MANY successful Pakistanis here that are doing just fine and have NEVER been pushed to change our Religious Heritage! In fact consider this, WALMART has Zabihah Halal Meat openly and at great rates, Superstore also carries Pakistani Brands, and even mainstream restuarants like Boston Pizza have Halal Options available at locations. Muslims are free here, and when you actually open your eyes and see the amount of MUSLIMS in Government, in high ranking position, owning property, etc etc etc you have to be living under a rock to think Canada isn't good for Pakistanis or Muslims in general.
j. May 16, 2012 09:13am
That's not an issue. Every community has it's problem. Atleast the positive the has come out is that the Pakistanis dont sacrifice their values for solving another countries problems.
SAlim Khan May 16, 2012 02:40pm
Mostly, the taxi drivers do not report their income correctly. Each experienced taxi driver can easily earn between $4000-$7000 per month but they report between 30%-35% on their tax returns to CRA. Which means that they fall in the low income category but actually they are not. Most of these taxi drivers have houses build back home(Pakistan or India) after they became Canadian immigrant or citizens. In regards to engineers and doctors driving taxis, it is my friend their choice. For doctors to get into practice in Canada, they need to qualify the Canadian medical board exams ( Part1,2 & 3) and then they will apply for residency programs all over Canada, which is very competitive and challenging. The same apply to engineers. I had been in academia back in Pakistan before coming to Canada, and believe me , the education system there is not up to the standard. Engineering graduates from either Pakistan or India have to take some courses from any Canadian institute before they can be at par with the graduates from Canada. I do not see anything wrong with it and as again it is very competitive, therefore engineering graduates from these countries prefer to either drive taxis or do other jobs. IT IS A COMPETITIVE WORLD?
@i_Farukh May 16, 2012 09:13am
An eye opener for new applicants. Appreciate your research in this regard.
osee May 17, 2012 11:56am
People are misunderstanding the data, this is because 95% of pakistanis cheat on their taxes!
Shaikh May 16, 2012 09:09am
Your Analysis is not exactly right. It should've been done on family income, as most Pakistani women in Canada are at home taking care of their children as compared to other minority groups who are living in Canada. Therefore, they are not able to add money to the net family income. As compared to Indians, mostly women in their family work, subsequently they add to the net family income. Therefore they are able to buy their own house, etc.
aqeel May 16, 2012 09:08am
Australia is still better than Canada. At least we have jobs here. No matter if the immigration policies have changed.
Truth Bites May 16, 2012 02:36pm
Problem is result of multiple issues behind Pakistan immigrants to Canada. First, many of them wanted to move there for better life by any means, ie any degrees diplomas etc they can get back home. That doesnt mean they had the skills for the job market in Canada or even there was a desire to train themselves. Its also failure of Canadian immigration policy that accepted credentials of so called professionals for points needd for immigration, very same credentials or degrees were in most cases were not accepted by professional bodies or employers in Canada. So many ended up doing low end jobs and some started relying on social security. Many in this category or self employed do not show real earning to save tax, hence their real income are not part of this data. Secondly, wealthy Pakistani immigrants were only interested in a second passport that can allow them to travel freely, they never moved to Canada for good only visiting it time to time. So in this survery they would appear as has never worked! Third category are real professionals and has skills to get on to good jobs, that are in minority and those are the ones making real contibution whatever the data is showing here.
Rehman May 16, 2012 03:31pm
I immigrated to Canada 13 years ago, studied again,got a good job, nice house and all the perks, sponsored some 5 people; Canada is not a country for entrepreneurs, its a highly regulated economy which is not small business friendly. I moved out to USA from Canada some 5 years ago, my spouse is now a MD (Doctor) in USA although she struggled for 5 years to get a spot there despite passing all Licensing exams and work at Hospitals and Clinics in GTA; and i now have my own consulting company in NY and employ 4 people. My experience in Canada was one very depressing as every day i wanted to get out of that CAGE while commuting and day-dreaming....dont go there new prospectus immigrants, you are better off in your country or origins. Doctors dont come to Canada - Period. My son says " Khana peena aur Dhandi Hawa"...whikle describing Canada..Best
Singh May 16, 2012 09:13am
Most of the Indian immigrant families have 2 children, whereas average Pakistani immigrant families have 3 to 4 children. In an Indian family, husband and wife both work whereas in most Pakistani family only husband works so one person working with 4 dependent will obviously lead to poverty.
Javed May 16, 2012 01:19pm
Canada has more services oriented industry, the real manufacturing industries have moved out of Canada as a result creating unemployment. I have a Graduate degree in Engineering from a Canadian University back in 1980s but lost my job in 1982 recession. Since then I worked in the Middle East and never looked back.The jobs over there are driven by the performannce of the companies as a whole and one can loose his/her job if the company makes a loss. I believe these days, the job market in Canada has become much tougher, there are more & more graduates coming out of the Canadian Universities each year than the jobs available in the market. I however, would recommend young Pakistanis (students) to take the opportunity to immigrate/get admission in Canadian Universities and start the beginning from there. Canada has the best education system and I'm sure Pakistani students can outperform there._Javed Khan, Jeddah KSA
Babajaan May 16, 2012 03:34pm
My advice to young Pakistanis planning to move to USA/Canada for better life. 1. Get education full time as education system in the west is very easy. Apply for an educational loan or grants or scholarships. Get into technical programs which are in demand or will be in demand over the next decade or more. 2. Find yourself a full-time job or multiple part time jobs to take care of your living expenses. See if you can find jobs on campus, co-op programs or find work in physically challenging places - warehouses, packaging which pays relatively better. Worst case - find under the table jobs. 3. Live within your limits, avoid credit cards, loans, and avoid friendships with girls (pocket drainers..) etc. 4. Stay focused by all means and do not let free-loaders and losers desist you from your goals. Complete education by all means, no matter how hard you have to work. 5. Do not seek advice from people on welfare systems or even interact with them. Learn the good values of society as they have adopted more islamic values then us muslims. Please SMILE, for God sake when you have an eye-contact with an stranger.. even a fake smile with leave a positive impression. 6. Ask your mother/father and good people to make dua for your success and well-being. Avoid, ignorant mullahs and masajids which teach you very narrow vision of Islam by all means. Establish nimaz and ask Allah swt for help in every matter as no help and guidance is better than HIS. Trust me, you will not succeed with Allah's help. Remember HIM in your heart when you are alone and talk to HIM. Tell HIM your problems and ask HIS help. Trust me; HE swt is closer to us then our own thoughts. Tell HIM every day that you love HIM swt most and teach your kids the same. Mumma and Baba come after Allah and HIS messenger. 7. Learn how the society moves and understand its culture and way of thinking. Adopt it and never look back. The reason our doctors cannot find jobs is their lacking in high-tech medical education and TRAINING. Our doctors from back home are not trained and certified to serve patients in a systematic and high-tech way. 8. For doctors, prepare for Canadian medical licence exams way before arrival. It is hard to get out of odd-jobs once you deviate from your goal and focus. 9. Apply for jobs and attend interviews with confidence even if you don't have experience; you will learn a great deal by interacting with people. 10. Avoid living among desi communities by all means. Share an apartment/home etc in a vibrant area even if it costs a bit more. I am sure many brothers here will have even better suggestions but I would share in case someone is feeling discouraged by the dismal state of Pakistanis abroad. 11. AVOID WELFARE PLEASE. Our Pakistanis love living off welfare system which corrodes their mind and spirits to move forward. They pull their families down and know how to cheat the system. Wives collect benefits claiming widow and divocee status, just an example. 12. Work hard but be smart about what you do to reach your goal!! Thanks
Waqas May 16, 2012 04:27pm
These statistics reflect to the population of Canada in 2006. It has been 6 years since then
YYZ May 16, 2012 01:17pm
The barriers to employment are the same for all, not just Pakistanis - qualifications and experience from your home countries are not recognised here (rightly or wrongly), doctors (unless from US) cannot practice here without re-qualification. So when the playing field is skewed equally against all immigrants, and one group of immigrants succeeds / fails, then it is because of that group's actions or lack there of. As immigrants, we chose to come here, and it is our responsibility to adapt to do well. My qualifications (MBA) and 8 years experience in my field meant nothing - I had to switch careers and start at the bottom in my new field, which I did and today am well placed within the company I work for. It is the unwillingness to assimilate into the society that is responsible for the state of the Pakistani immigrants today. Some easily identifiable factors are - single (wife does not work) / dual incomes, family size (1or 2 kids as vs 4 or more), unnecessarily high focus on "religion", too much cultural baggage from home country. And this is true of Pakistani immigrants not only here, but also other countries such as UK.
Guest May 18, 2012 07:59pm
Are you Shahbaz Ahmad Khan who went to Harvard to seek wisdom?
Arisha G May 16, 2012 04:37pm
Yes, Long Live Pakistan. And fine, if you want to stay in Pakistan and 'build' the homeland. Makes perfect sense! People will do what they want. Let them make the choice. Just lay out your story and tell them this is what 'can/may' be expected AS WELL, so be prepared. But what are you talking about in the rest of the comments? Just because you had a particularly bad experience, doesn't make it a snapshot for the entire population. There are certain sects of society in every part of the world that are not so welcome to change. I worked in a minimun wage job ($7.25 atthe time) as well at a more respectable pay scale now in a national company. Never ever have I been discriminated against due to my beliefs and practise. In Ramadan, I am allowed to alter my lunch (dinner in my old job for iftar) times to acoomodate prayers. As I've heard the same for many doing labour jobs in factories. Having worked and lived in Ontario only, however, I've found it to be very receptive of the needs and norms of all segments of soceity.
Taxi Driver May 16, 2012 11:32am
Dear Imanul Haque, we need Taxi Drivers and Secuirty Guards. Hard work and an honest living is what matters, not job titles.
HWG May 16, 2012 03:09pm
Then why do they go there? The foreign government allows people to come to serve their society.
yasir May 16, 2012 03:21pm
i think we also have to look positive side i know a lot of families in canada who are doing very good, have good jobs and there kids are getting good education , so hopefully with next generation of pakistanis numbers would look better. i live in us , go to canada once a year they have descent social network in toronto, good education, free health, good resturants , better security as compared to US. all u have to do is to keep working hard, if your degree from back home not enough get enrolled in other courses keep trying because if u work hard you will succeed no matter where u are. so keep applying for canadian immigration , things r not as bleek as writer has portrayed.
Murtaza Haider May 17, 2012 11:54am
The data are from Statistics canada. The next wave will cover data from 2011, but will be released around 2015/16. You are welcome to suggest more up to date data sources!
geele.mitti May 16, 2012 10:25am
I would argue that there is an undercurrent of bias based not only upon nationality but also on religion. This is mostly hidden and become apparent only if you are working in mid- high level management , which unfortunately is not accessible to many Pakistanis. Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular find it very hard to assimilate because of their religious values. In order to socialize one has to assimilate into Canadian culture which is diametrically opposite to our cultural as well as religious values for example after hour partying , club culture and alcohol. One has to sacrifice a lot and change a lot to be accepted in this society.
Ibn-e-Ashfaque May 17, 2012 02:11am
That is the spirit Raza. To work hard and think positively and logically.
Avtar May 16, 2012 03:12pm
I have found it hard to hire people with only Indian and Pakistani education and experience. I am sure Murtaza finds it so. Education is an entry step for an interview and experience is what keeps in workforce unless some fins a unionized job. While there is a restriction on the number of new doctors practicing (as it is funded from public purse) there are less restrictions on dentistry. One sees a lot of dentists of Indian origin advertised on TV for our business. One has to be able to adapt to the environment. I can personally vouch that sitting at home is not going to one experience in any walk of life.
farrukh May 16, 2012 04:11pm
Everybody in Canada has to make a fresh start, I earned my BS and MS in Engineering from US along with MBA and had worked in US as an engineer for seven years, but upon moving to Canada in 2004 it became obvious that Engineering jobs are not in abundance especially in my specialization, I went back to College and start brushing my skills in finance and accounting while working as a security guard and hotel front desk clerk, and now with the blessing of Allah, I am comfortably placed in mainstream Canada, in fact among the top 10% earners in Canada.
Hashmi May 16, 2012 04:13pm
I agree with the writter that most of the Pakistan remain in between whether they should remain in Canada or go back to Pakistan because of Religious or Economic reasons. I landed to Canada in 2002 and did a job in my profession for years and then realize to keep up in this society i have to get education from thier Universities and we had 3 class mates from Pakistan who all did Post graduate desgree in thier Field and Alhamollillah now all are in thier profession fields. Now the question why paksiatnis are struggling and under the Poverty line : i blame on Canadian Social system which is a easy going way to rely on that by having 4~5 childrens and then getting social benefits on the basis on children. i also admit then they are very Bias towards foreign experince till you dont have thier Canadian expericne its difficuilt to get the job and also when they have all kind of brilliant professional in bulk they know if they reject that they will be another behnd the rejiected one
malik May 16, 2012 04:16pm
I agree with Babajaan, but first we have to face facts we Pakistanis are a nation of "Haad Haraams" it has permeated to our bone marrow and we are teaching each other the wrong things. When we cheat in our daily lives,cheat in our schools and exams,cheat in our jobs, lie in our experiance don't you think the "ghoras" who ruled us and cheated the whole world know us. No country is better than your own, you just have to work harder for change. One should not be afraid of hard work or menial work as long as it is a stepping stone. This is called character.
Pankaj May 16, 2012 01:14pm
Two simple reasons - large families and less working members.
cssingh May 16, 2012 10:27am
Thanks Dawn.Very interesting.Most Pakistanis do not mix with non Pakistanis or share others culture and learn history of their country of their adoption.
farhan May 16, 2012 10:17am
very informative and detailed analysis.
munawar naqvi May 16, 2012 10:18am
As rightly pointed out, a good %age of Pakistanis arriving in Canada had never been in workforce in the past; they hailed from well-to-do educated familities and enjoying comfortable life. Starting an odd-job career from point-zero in a country like Canada with highly un-comfortable weather conditions is a mile-stone itself. This blog has strengthened my earlier view point that new Pakistani Canadians are sacrificing the comforts they enjoyed in Pakistan and parting familities, simply to be called "CANADIAN" which has become a status-symbol in Pakistan.
Syed Wajid Ali May 16, 2012 09:52am
Well its a worldwide phenomenon for the Pakistani community . The current generation who had enjoyed the luxuries from the efforts of previous one hasnt got the urge to work hard & work smart. And has got loads of inflated ego and empty arrogance in them. Coming back to Middle East after 20 years having spent my childhood here, i see the same, Pakistani community is no where to be found. Gone are days when Pakistanis were at the top Government slots, banking positions and engineering industry by virtue of their hard work and dedication. All the jobs and businesses have been taken over by more hard working keralities and philipinos and it serves their economy very well.
mlk May 16, 2012 04:06pm
100% bitter truth
SQureshi May 16, 2012 12:46pm
Rather old data to be publised now. I wonder how much it differs now from this 2005 concensus data,
imanul haque May 16, 2012 09:41am
The best place for Pakistanis is in Pakistan. Particularly true with highly educated. At the end of the day they will not be taxi drivers or security guards.
hammad May 16, 2012 06:07pm
thats what i think too , how the heck they can afford to go back home almost every couple years whith whole family , and support family back home too . If they are """really """ so poor. I think You are right just becasue they are not filing thier texes ""properlly"" , it looks like they are below avg. Going back to getting socialized well that depends upon your values , if going with your wife to a bar and meeting new ppl is what it means , then sure we wouldt do that as like indians. But bottom line is that there is problem with in us and we need to address it.
Usman Chaudhry May 16, 2012 10:00am
Dear Murtaza, In my opinion, this is the result of what the local society back home has experienced over the course of ten years. Being an ally of 'war on terrorism' has given rise to domestic violence, terror spilling (both indigenous and also from Afghanistan), horrible law and order situation, poor economic-education-health-defense-security and social policies, inapt governance (lack of morality; be it in political or public discourse) and corrupt leadership has produced what u have stated. Canada deserves better people from better parts of the world, leave abroad we has lost our credibility in our own eyes. A depressing situation, sad but true. Usman
Charminar May 16, 2012 12:54pm
Couple of remarks: Please do not try to malign the statistics from Canada Govt. They did not put out this to target Pakistani's or Muslims. This is how an independent institution works in the west. No govt. can influence the report, since the raw data used to get this information is coming straight from agency that is tracking the tax returns for decades. They are not changing the formula suddenly to slam a religion or nation, case in point you can look in the trend over years and validate the data yourself on a higher level. I am not sure why Pakistani are feeling either pressure to protect their fellow Pakistani in Canada or protect their country and slam who left for immigration. It is evident that something that is being taught in school, the culture and the modus operandi utilized in Pakistan is not working. I believe this an opportunity to self analyse and ask harder questions to oneself. It is exactly like your country going into a global village and trying to compete with other countries. It is a valid sample size of Pakistan as a country. You have to ask questions where are we failing? It is not just two member earning family Vs one. If you are working as taxi cab driver or any other low income jobs, you are low income period. No need to give excuses is how they have been victimized by western for being Pakistani or Muslim. I bet there are lots of Indian Muslims doing much better with only the male working then the Pakistani.
balram May 16, 2012 04:07pm
I agree with Mr. Singh
john May 16, 2012 04:09pm
A Country born out of the Inability to live with others, have no hope they will assimilate with any community ,any where in the world
Farrukh May 16, 2012 04:11pm
There are several reasons behind the failures amongst the Pakistani born Canadians, but the one that struck me the most is their inability to try harder to adjust to Canadian mainstream by attending courses to refresh themselves and their skill sets at Colleges and Universities. An average Pakistani upon arriving from Pakistan starts working in a factory and then it is very hard for him to come out of that conundrum. Some of the fellow Pakistanis get a taxi driving permit and others attain a fork lift driving license and off they go. I have met quite a few fellow Pakistani taxi drivers who admit that they don't want to work at better jobs and pay higher taxes whereas it is easy being a taxi driver to hide the income and pay minimal tax and on top of that collect Child Benefits and other social benefits which are offered to low income families, and hence they have more children. I believe the numbers Hasan Murtaza has showed in terms of earnings by Pakistanis are slightly distorted due to the fact that they don't report their full income during the year to avoid tax, and secondly they don't buy houses for almost the same reasons.
Some Sense May 16, 2012 01:16pm
Looking at some comments here, I feel some of the countrymen don't just get it! This has nothing to do with Islam! It has to do with assimilating within a society where you want to live for improving your future and want go give the best to your family. The same is the case within Pakistan itself. A villager cannot live the way he lived in his remote home when he moves to even a slum in a big city. He has to live by the city's rules. No point in getting frustrated, angry or disgusted. Or easily blame the ruling dispensation or their uncles for all our problems! Oh, by the way, countrymen think Saudi Arabia is heaven. When they go there, the dreams, the hopes, everything is shattered. At least you can expect some respect in the West. In the Gulf, your are just.....
Ibrahim May 16, 2012 03:53pm
You have a more honest life in Islamic Republic of Pakistan? That I find hard to believe. Some problems here: - Taxi drivers and cashiers do not report their full income. They save on taxes by doing this and gain social services. In this process, they sacrifice the ability to buy a house, business or even a good car. Also, there is no gain in social status. These men are aware of it and they like to keep it that way. Perhaps they have come to think that they can never advance in the Canadian society - which isn't true at all. - Some people come with fake accreditation from Pakistan. This is possible in Pakistan. - Most Pakistanis land in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal - cities with possibly the worst employment rates in Canada especially for new comers. - For doctors: Medical degree is called MD here and achieved after 12 yrs of hard work roughly. In Pakistan, it is MBBS and achieved after 6 yrs. Isn't it unfair for Canadians who got their MD? - Most Pakistanis fail to recognize that they do need retraining or re-certification in Canada in order to better understand the new system. Why is the Canadian system different from Pakistan? Different government and laws, codes and ethics, advanced technology systems, different environment, different customer and different culture. - Some Pakistanis that immigrate here are too old and do not have that same mental capacity to get certification when they were done with studies long time ago in Pakistan. If immigrant Pakistanis understand this, then I think they'll be successful here.
@canadaimmigrate May 16, 2012 03:21pm
Lack of preparation before immigrating to Canada is a big contributing factor. Language is the biggest barrier so are the lack of soft skills. I have seen many Pakistanis flourish in Canada. It is true that there are difficulties for professionals and most of them went back to schools to upgrade their qualifications etc but it is not that these cannot be overcome by proper planning.
Ahmed May 16, 2012 11:27am
I have been to Canada a number of times. Some of the problems faced by Pakistanis are real for example its difficult to get a nice job even if you past experience in Pakistan or Middle East is top class. They just do not recognize foriegn experience and credentials. You have to start afresh. Secondly I know a number of Pakistanis who are not "willing workers" and totally depend on social security by producing more children and lying one way or the other. Basically their training while they were in Pakistan was bad, they just cannot think straight.
Nav May 16, 2012 11:27am
As someone who has lived in both America and Canada as a graduate student, I would say that Canada is a big disappointment for Pakistanis. I lived in Edmonton for two years, and I could not wait to get out. It was an extremely hostile place, both in terms of the people and the climate. There was a documentary on Global TV back in 2007 about how doctors from abroad find a million hurdles in their way before they can practice in Canada and are working as security guards and cooks. It was alleged that this is deliberate, because those who have the jobs don't want to make less money which would be the case if everyone had a job.
whatever99 May 16, 2012 02:35pm
Its all in the mind set, make more money doing taxi service, pay no taxes. Have more children claim benefits---easy life why get costly training etc etc. Nothing new here, same in UK.
(Dr.) B.N. Anand May 16, 2012 11:43am
Sir, it is a true analysis. The Pakistani immigrants in Canada have to introspect about their social values while living in a highly westernized country. There is surely conflict in the social system which these immigrants find quite difficult to adopt. Unless one adopts the well known saying"while in Rome, do as the Romans do", it will be a rather tough going despite their good back ground in education and vocational skills. In contrast, the Indian immigrants are a little more liberal and empowered and are quick to adopt to the requirements of the local customs and at the same time preserving their identities. BNA
Aamir Younis May 16, 2012 04:38pm
good and informative article
nadeem May 16, 2012 10:14am
America's not so liberal legal immigration policy combined with its less than generous welfarehealthcare system are perhaps the prime reasons which push the new comers to work harder and assimilate in to the new society and culture at a much faster pace than their Canadian or European counterparts.
karur May 16, 2012 04:01pm
Well written! The issues are simple. Success in Canada will require secular values and an open mind. This helps to assimilate. Pakistan has evolved very differently to India and unfortunately secular values of Jinah have been replaced by Wahabi influence championed by Zia. Therefore, Pakistani society has become an inward looking People who view the rest of the World with suspision and fear. This explains why a pakistani male feels threatened by western values and lifestyle. Educated Pakistani women are accepted a lot easier because they are seen to be more open. This is an interesting article
A.Bajwa May 16, 2012 10:17am
It is failure to adjust, even refusal to adjust. You go to a Pakistani Mela. You can see it.
shiraz May 16, 2012 03:35pm
Pakistanis are only poor on paper! not otherwise. I bet anyone on this forum or any other forum to check their assets and you will find no poor among them. It's just that they like to do everything in cash and not pay any taxes and therefore become paper poor! It happens everywhere but we just do more!
Rehman May 16, 2012 03:41pm
Asif, good to eat lentils than pasta as the taste is familiar. Canada is not that bad, its your experience. I dont understand why you wanted to have the Phantom of Pakistan in Canada; its a western country and its our choice. They dont force us to come here. I have left the country but for South of the border and love it here. Best
musheir May 16, 2012 04:52pm
things are changing in the u.k new generation is getting themselves educated one should also remember pak-immigrants were from rural back ground of mirpur
PakistaniintheStates May 16, 2012 03:54pm
Proudlindian: How do you know that 2005 will be worse than 2012? This writer is just rambling without fresh data. Pitch something else, it's an old stuff you're just recycling.
Kamran May 18, 2012 07:58pm
When I immigrated to Canada from Pakistan, sixteen years back, I had a job on the third day of arrival. It wasn't a low paying job. It was a regular engineering job with a pay equal to what my Canadian colleagues were getting. My Pakistani degree was accepted as being equal to a Canadian degree. Yes Canadians prefer someone who has Canadian experience but if they find a person who is willing to accept change, has the ability, training and education to deliver the goods, they accept him or her. readily Too often I see Pakistanis not willing to improve their credentials by attending night school or getting an apprenticeship. They are the ones who run into a wall when question of advancement comes up. It is my sincere advice to my Pakistani brothers to improve their communication skill by learning English and speaking it well. Equally important are their professional skills. Having a certification from a professional body will open doors for them.
Naveed Lotia May 16, 2012 04:51pm
True. I am one of them. I was in consumer risk management in Pakistan and have been in that profession in Canada since I moved in early 2001. Got a job within a month of arriving here. My salary in Canada has always been higher than the average canadian. I suppose i am the luckier ones, judging by the picture of Pakistanis presented here. Good analysis though.
Saad May 16, 2012 11:23am
You know why this happens - our countrymen are just lazy and most of them who migrate want good education for their children which they do get in govt schools. The problem also lies in us adapting to their environment, the pain to go through their education system to get good jobs - I am a graduate from their university (Pakistani born) never had a problem of getting a job there worked for some of the best companies there before moving back to Pakistan. My suggestion to all Pakistani immigrants is please take sometime to educate yourself - go to a college learn a new skill a short course hardly takes 6 months or so - do it and then you won't have to do a factory or taxi drivers job. You can't expect them to just welcome us with arms wide open - they need to stay competitive in the market they want the best people for the job - people with the right skills. The Indians on the other hand adapted themselves to their environment much better than we all do. They take the pain to go through their "education" system. Bottom line is please educate yourself take up a course at a local college or university and you will see that you will get a decent job within no time. The are not against giving us a good job only if we have the right skills and education for the job. Having said that, Pakistan needs educated people to help it pass through this tough phase ever since its existence. I'd suggest others to come help their motherland its better than those factory jobs you do for 10.50/hour ... Good luck all!
Tariq Asam May 16, 2012 02:46pm
II agree. Four factors to consider: large families, single male worker, orthodoxy and income under-reporting to collect welfare. They are somewhat also intertwined. Large families increase the incentive to collect welfare, orthodoxy hinders in females seeking work and assimilating, under-reporting of income is common because it fairly easy to do. I actually knew a family with four children whose mother was doctor (never tried to get license to practice because she was lazy) and father was an MBA, who had no initiative to look for work and always blamed the system. They close to live on welfare because it was easy and brought sufficient money. An accounting job would have fetched the male less money (at least in short-run) and he repeatedly turned down the offer to work. They never bought home because they will loose the benefits, and had car in their brother’s name and frequently visited Disney World. I also believe, our culture in Pakistan have prepared us well to look for ways to cheat and pretend to be condescending to other cultures. Did I mentioned, they both prayed five times and insisted on eating Halal only.
Umer May 16, 2012 04:55pm
Man, they report less so they have to pay less taxes. Smart lol
A Pakistani May 16, 2012 04:55pm
Dear Murtaza, Good efforts! I respect your perspective. The only thing I'd be careful about are observations pertaining to cultural values like empowerment, identity, and assumed roles of men and women. I can understand that because of significant cultural differences there might be a 'tendency to feel insecure as a male from a collectivist society'. However, I don't believe it should be generalized to the entire immigrant population from a certain part of the world. Numbers that you shared do convey a bleak picture. However, there are many cases of successful immigrants from Pakistan that are not captured by the same numbers. It is like looking at a glass half-full and half-empty at the same time. Often people look at only one or the other part of the glass. I hope you understand my perspective. Thank you and I appreciated your taking time to highlight an important aspect and its associated trends.
sallu May 16, 2012 01:24pm
one just has to assimilate "enough". Moderation is the key. Islam is all about Moderation. You can wear full clothes(loose Jeans) and still be a good Muslim. Also don't assimilate that much {Mini skirts and alcohol (aimed at both genders)} that you loose respect of your community. People forget the Pakistan was made by Jinnah and Iqbal PBUH. you only have to see their photographs to find out how to assimilate :). they wore the clothes of their masters whilst still yearning for a homeland of their dreams for their Muslim brethren. We Pakistanis need to reinvent ourselves. Now ............Jobs I have to admit when you are a first time immigrant/minority/second class citizen, you and your friends don't have questions let alone answers in regards to path to a fulfilled life. you also cannot go to the pubs to get answers ;), being a Muslim. we also have the tendency to give into easy money (Taxi, cash jobs etc).i did it for 7 yrs until i got married and started worrying :). Someone posted about Halal way of earning on one of the posts, which is fine. But don't forget that your kids would grow up soon and they would need a "role model". one should keep trying for a Title until you get one.
Mobashar A May 16, 2012 04:57pm
I have been living here for the past 32 years having completed CA here again after completing it in England back in 1975. I have no problems in changing jobs or getting more than fair share of employment offers. I think the problems with our new immigrants are two folds; lack of willingness to upgrade qualification to Canadian level, and self pity regarding nobody is helping. Deal with these issues and I see no reason why our new immigrants would not be successful just like those who came here in seventies to nineties. Most of our medical professionals and Pakistanis and some of those are specialists. One thing in common all of those people never hesitated in upgrading their education and never looked any body for help. In this country, if you want it hard enough you can get it but nobody is going to hand it to you in a platter.
Kanwal May 16, 2012 12:09pm
Multiply the situation in Canada by 10 roughly, and you will get the figures for UK's Pakistani community. This of course has a lot to do with the misleading immigration policies and the recession. But what we do not understand as an immigrant is that once you make the move, you have to start from scratch a lot of times. And you need strong home work for this. To reach initial targets, we do not need to hesitate in driving taxis etc. But these should not be the ultimate goals ever. You want better life style, you have to work harder than Pakistan. Thats a fact. Take it or leave it.
Mobashar A May 17, 2012 02:41pm
I have been living here for the past 32 years having completed CA here again after completing it in England back in 1975. I have no problems in changing jobs or getting more than fair share of employment offers.
Ahmad May 16, 2012 05:13pm
Hello All, I have been living in Canada for almost 20 years, and I'm successful consultant in Software, I did not get my degree from Canada, However, i have seen very rough and bright side, The bottom line is that Pakistani People need to change their mentality, In the real world a degree is just a piece of paper, they don't count in this economy. If you want to be successful, then follow the demand and supply rule, don't just earn a degree in political science, and then wish to get a job. In this economy, the winner will be who will choose the path to continue learning. Knowledge is power, don't be dumb.
AJM May 16, 2012 11:12am
Good job, the article is true and represents the facts that are not only true for canada but every where pakistani's live. I moved to Canada in 1993 and have seen the mass movement since the last two decades. I have seen all of this unfold in front of my eyes. We come with a Baggage ( Eastern Values ) and the poor male struggles with it all his life. you know why? He is in a GUEST state of mind . thinking one day he will go back and all will be fine so why adapt to the changing environment .
Hussain May 16, 2012 05:16pm
Very fine Sardar jee. I had brief experience living in Vancouver and worst drug crimes are usually committed by Sikh community. People dread them in their neighborhoods and they are thriving over their century old migration history. You're MPs where sikhs live in majority. No other areas have your representation. You're not the shining examples for Pakistanis to follow in Canada.
XaHuR May 18, 2012 07:44pm
Okay so according to you to be successful over there one has to change his/her attitude, you also have made some points like 'Religious beliefs prevent childrens from not taking part in activities' if you could more specifically elaborate these activities in detail that will be good, do you really think that our children gathering with theirs will make a good impact or will help them financially, I guess it makes no sense at all. Furthermore if a person have had some good productive skills then culture, life, language and religious outlook has nothing to do with earning more money.
patrioticlad May 16, 2012 05:18pm
Dear i dont think so this is the situation out there. I agree it is very hard to live and find suitable job. I had many friends who went back to Pakistan just like you and i am very delighted to hear that as you are serving your homeland. But i would disagree that they put Pakistanis behind the bars due to their religion. They have much better justice system in Canada as compare to pakistan. We come here and feel more secure than Pakistan and get equal rights. It is very sad to admit but, unfortunately true. I Love Pakistan and want to see Pakistan as properous country. May Allah Bless Pakistan.
Singh May 16, 2012 02:57pm
Interesting comments. One of the excuse given by most people is discrimination. If that is the case than most discriminated people in Canada should be turbaned Sikhs as they stand out more than anybody else but I think they have done quite well for themselves. An uneducated Sikh from a village of Punjab also succeed in Canada because he is ready to do anything, work very hard. His wife also works and together they will soon make a good living. After that he will aspire to be a MP or MPP. There are more Sikhs MP or MPPs than there is any other community from Asia. It is the spirit which matters. If Pakistanis want to succeed in Canada, follow the Sikhs. They have the same culture and language but not the same spirit.
kayenn May 16, 2012 11:31am
The image of the nation is also the key for Canadians to allow higher immigration from Pakistan. Government and people of Pakistan need to change that image internationally as well. This is written indirectly by the writer............
@ahmadmobashar May 16, 2012 05:24pm
I have been living here for the past 32 years having completed CA here again after completing it in England back in 1975. I have no problems in changing jobs or getting more than fair share of employment offers.
Amir May 16, 2012 05:31pm
The descriptive statistics are interesting and shows certain characteristics of immigrants from a certain background and country. But, the concluding remarks and policy implications are much less worthy than the numbers given here. Serious policy analyses are not based on mere descriptive statistics, and particularly Canadian policy toward immigration from Pakistan will not be affected by just some observational facts, the numbers which are not meaningful itself. For instance, taxi drivers could be earning much higher than what they report, perhaps that is one of the reason people join such career as it is much profitable.
raika45 May 16, 2012 12:30pm
I am a Malaysian and I have a brother who has settled in Canada some 15 years ago.He will tell me stories of the delima of the immigrants from India and Pakistan.Due to the abrupt change in culture,life language and the religious outlook, it comes as a shock to them.The Indians it seems have sort of adjusted to it,but the Pakistanis seem to have a problem.The most striking is the cultural shock.Intermingling of the sexes and women working seems alien to them.There are Pakistani wives that have been there for years and yet cannot speak english.Religious beliefs prevent their children from taking part in activities.This creates problems between children and parents.Especially the father.Without a wife working, it is not possible for menial workers with some 4 kids to survive.You want to migrate , you must change your attitude.Otherwise stay at home.Overseas countries dictate their term .Not listen to yours.
Amir May 16, 2012 05:31pm
Depending on welfare funds is a personal choice so that doesn't show any causal connection between origin and poverty, while it may say that Pakistani prefers to do and report what is being observed than the alternates available. Comparison between European and Pakistani immigrants is absurd, make no sense. For policy analysis or recommendations author need to document serious academic research on immigration in Canada in easy to read manner. For instance, Mikal Skutrued at University of Waterloo recently published a report that why immigrants are less successful in Canada than Australia. Descriptive statistics can be a good start or provocation, but cannot be made part of immigration policy at least for a immigrant loving country like Canada.
bornPakistani May 16, 2012 05:31pm
Basically it applies the same as in Pakistan. Pakistanis are not nation it is a group of people with different ethnicities and religious sects and belief. Indians and other communities strongly support their people. Pakistanis do not support their people. I was not supported by Pakistanis when I try to get job in my field. I asked a favour for part time job to some so called gas stations/convenience stores owner pakistanis. They refused me and support other nationals as they were good for them. To some extent it is hard in canada to adjust if u're muslim and born outside of Canada
RLone May 16, 2012 05:32pm
A very astute observation!
RLone May 16, 2012 05:33pm
Stereotype. The average Pakistani in Mississauga lives a life just as segregated as the average Indian in the same town. And second generation immigrants always assimilate in Canada - unlike the UK.
patrioticlad May 16, 2012 05:33pm
I think it is hard to find a professional job in Canada but normal odd jobs we can find easily. I would agree many doctors and engineer drive cabs and many accountants do security job. In terms of career building many of us are going through a very bad phase, but as long as earning money is concerned, everybody, who is not lazy, is earning good whether it is through raw jobs or professional jobs. I don't understand the criteria of measuring poverty because even cab drivers or people in security earn hefty amount of money. They might be wasting their knowledge or degrees but financially they are sound. But thing among us is different from our other counterparts that unlike them we don't let our wives work. In these societies they have created such kind situation where everyone will have to work in order to fulfill our financial needs. If only husband is working then it is going to have an effect on family in the long run if not in the short run.
Sania May 16, 2012 02:49pm
I live in Canada and totally agree with this article. It is indeed a sorry state and I believe this has a lot to do with the mind-sets of many Pakistanis. With all due respect for the concept of 'back home' of many Pakistani immigrants, I feel it is time to accept that Canada is their home now. It is impossible to progress forward when you refuse to budge at all.
raika45 May 16, 2012 02:07pm
The question is this. How good is your education? Can it stand up to the standards imposed by the authorities?We had doctors here from your country that were sent back because of incompetence.
ProudIndian May 16, 2012 02:04pm
2012 data must be worse than 2005. Better not think 2012 data.
Nav May 16, 2012 12:27pm
Yes, but you should be able to do what you have trained for. Otherwise it is terribly frustrating.
Nav May 16, 2012 12:23pm
Training in what? Why would a doctor not want to practice in his or her field?
s.khan May 16, 2012 05:35pm
Please provide statistics to show how successful Pakistanis are in USA. You have made a sweeping statement probably based on few examples.
Mobashar A May 16, 2012 05:40pm
Migrating to another country is not a right rather privilege. Seeing it from that angle might be helpful!!
ali May 18, 2012 07:43pm
Well I dont have ther confidence, dedication, jazba and faith. Canada needs to change its attitude or stop importing immigrants. My dreams go out the toilet each time I come here. I am just wating on my passport and get the hell out of here. They can have their country for all I care.
Kamran May 16, 2012 05:43pm
I have been living in Canada for the last 5 years and have an absolutely wonderful view of Canada. Mainly the skilled class immigrants are the one who face problems. As there is at least a 2 year struggle to get a decent job. At the same time, most skilled class immigrants move with their families and are in their 30s to 40s, which bring a whole slew of problems, including cultural barriers. It is extremely important to do your homework before moving to any place. Canada offers a lot of opportunities, but not for everyone. So it is important to know what your qualities, skill level and mindset (conservative/progressive) before moving. I have noticed that those who have a conservative mindset struggle the most, as they require to change their lives drastically.
Worried Pakistani May 16, 2012 12:20pm
I know only two people from Pakistan who have moved to Canada. Unfortunately one of them has a decade old redundant one year computer diploma and the other has a fake degree. But the thing both have common is fake experience certificates. What else can you expect other than such outcome. "Jo bo gay wohi kato gay". Do not know how many others there have proved there skill with same dodgy evidences. My sympathies are with my Doctor brothers out there. They struggle a lot back home and even after going abroad they still have to struggle to pass the foreign medical exams.
Kamran May 16, 2012 05:45pm
Disagree, I am a Pakistani and never faced any of these issues. In fact they go out of their limb to accomodate muslims, given the number of mosques there are in every neighbourhood. While we Pakistanis kill people on blasphemy law and part of the population serve them as heroes. This kind of mindset cannot excel anywhere, let alone Canada.
Pakistani Guy In BC May 16, 2012 05:46pm
Yes it is tough out here, Jobs are hard to come by. But then rather complaining about it, i decided to get off my butt and work at a low paying job while going part time to school to study computing science. Life is hell, I work 7 days a week, and the school work takes at least 14-15 hours to complete all the assignments... The only thing I can advise people is forget about what anyone says, put your head down pull up your sleeves, put the ego aside and work.. If no one is watching at least God is whether it be Canada, US, UK it's God's earth and he rewards those who work hard..
Hasan May 16, 2012 05:52pm
A nation without an identity or ashamed of it will obviously let it go easily as immigrants. We should not forget that immigration is transactional in nature. One moves to Canada/USA for better opportunities and not because one is tired of one's homeland. With that said there is nothing wrong in co-existing. Earn money, pay your taxes ,do not be a burden on society and practice your religious beliefs at home or in your own community only without irritating others. I hope these problems will go away with next generations, born and raised in Canada. Homeland is where you are born.
s.khan May 16, 2012 05:54pm
Pakistanis should read Darwin's theory of evolution before they immigrate anywhere. The theory basically says that species who adapt to environment thrive and the ones who don't perish. Mutaza's article illustrates social Darwinism clearly. Incidentally, it applies to Pakistan also. Pakistan will thrive if it adapt to the globalising, technology oriented world.More it sticks to the rigid, irrational traditions, customs and attitudes, the greater the difficulty of fitting into the globalising world. Please don't retreat into the cocoon. Slogans won't rectify the difficulties, only cold, rational thinking will move the country forward. Incidentally, Europe was in the similar situation in the middle ages till some courageous people put forward their bold ideas that spawned the renaissance and enlightenment.
AHA May 16, 2012 12:17pm
I agree, absolutely. But it is still sad that so many of our highly talented people cannot use the skills they acquired after so much of hard work.
Taimoor May 16, 2012 12:14pm
Then why an engineer, doctor or Phd is hesitant to become taxi driver or security gaurd in Pakistan. They can be honest and hardworking here as well...Its not just honesty and hardwork. Don't you think we can have more honest life in Islamic Republic of Pakistan. I think it is more about dollars or tax exempted income. And my dear job titles as well as education does matter and it is a fact that we are lagging behind in it. So let us try to overcome our weaknesses.
gulshan May 16, 2012 02:32pm
How so true !!!
Raza May 16, 2012 02:32pm
I lived in Canada for 13-years, have a house in Edmonton, Alberta and currently working in middle east. No doubt getting a decent job in Canada for south asian nationalities is a struggle. Management will only consider us for jobs where locals can't perform well, so high paying tough jobs are where we are adjusted and justified as employment diversity in an organization. I worked as Sr. Systems Analyst, Project Manager for leading organizations and had the privilege of working on high profile tough projects. Pakistani - Canadians I know with quality education back home plus Canadian education and with practical skill set are doing excellent in Canada. The ones lacking Canadian or developed countries education and hands on skills find it tough getting a decent opening providing on the job training, such jobs are normally reserved for local born Canadians. Another important point we need to seriously consider is that Canadian economy is only a small percentage of world economy (once I heard from a financial analyst on CBC as 2%, currently 11th or 12th world largest economy). Medical doctors migrating to Canada are facing really tough task, since only a very small percentage can go through a very tough process in place to start practicing as doctor, this is Canadian government immigration policy failure or may be a successful policy based on their immigration policy text that they need to immigrate quality labor to serve senior citizens. Mostly the doctors I know in Canada are young Pakistani doctors, not the ones having successful careers in Pakistan, but their are small percentage of exceptions. We take immigration initiative and should not blame a welcoming nation, also we have the opportunity to do corrective actions anytime we desire in the best interest for our family. I greatly admire Canadian ancestors, who gave a strong foundation to this society which we enjoy. They did thought about their families and friends in a way which is in the best interest of Canada, giving powers to deserving individuals, they practice ethical and professional values. Justice system has the ultimate power in Canada We apply for immigration because of our civil and military leadership failures, not giving us hope to dream for a better future, only thinking about their own families and interests, our civil government select incompetent individuals for very important jobs, where military keep increasing lucrative benefits to its force, way beyond ethical boundaries. I dream a better future for Pakistanis locally and internationally by joining hands with positive attitudes and with the ones always seeing the glass half filled.
Amarnath May 16, 2012 12:54pm
Asif, completely understand what you went through like many other Pakistanis. As the author has mentioned, many Pakistanis find it difficult to deal with the Pak-canadian identity issue and struggle in Canada. Your life model perfectly matches what the author said. Understanding the issues is the first step to solution, and Murtaza has brought up a good analysis towards this direction. Also, these are the kinds of analysis that developed country would use in determining their immigration policies.
Tariq Asam May 16, 2012 02:50pm
Great Work Murtaza.
Hussain May 16, 2012 02:52pm
Pakistanis are requested to come back and rough it out in Pakistan. Pakistan needs you more than these foreign lands and you don't need to assimilate and adopt any alien culture and values. There's no place like home. Pakistan is going to enter in its renaissance period very soon. I urge you to return and not miss the ride. No matter what you accomplish in these foreign lands, you'll always lose more in various dimensions. And pls also bring and maintain the good values you learnt abroad. They'll surely help.
Asif Khan May 16, 2012 09:31am
This article is close to my former situation. Canada is the most unpleasant country to live in the Western world. Not only it is highly anti Islam, Opportunities given to Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular are confined only to driving a cab or being a security guard, unlawfully putting Muslim men behind bar on a false charge initiated by their wives or any woman wanting to call the cops without any justification and other countless acts where Muslims are particularly targeted. It is better to live in our beloved Pakistan and eat lentils than to go to a country like Canada and be humiliated just because our faith is Islam. I know I was there and suffered tremendously and now by the grace of Allah I am back in my motherland, have a good life here. I council my fellow Pakistanis, not to venture to Canada. You do not know as they say "opportunities" there are actually farce or pigments of imagination ready to destroy lives and reputation. Stay in Pakistan and let’s build up our motherland. Long live Pakistan!
Ali May 16, 2012 09:33am
don't forget to mention aqeel that many engineer and doctors in Australia as well are driving taxis and doing odd jobs !
BILAL SHAMIM QURESHI May 16, 2012 02:03pm
Well written by Murtaza Haider, i agree with him. This is irony despite of so much potential we as a Nation could not prosper in international arena. We have been struggling from the time of creation (1947). We yet to see sincere and visionary leaders, if we had a patriotic leaders then we must have been in right track. We as a Nation never give up because we believe that we have all the things to reach in top and the time must come when our services to the world will be recognized and appreciated.
Naveed Lotia May 16, 2012 06:13pm
I moved to Canada in early 2011 and found a job in my profession (consumer banking) within a month of arriving here. I know many Pakistani Canadians and they are all doing very well. I have found that the Pakistanis driving Taxis for example, or doing odd jobs, have a different 'profile' than the ones who are well integrated and have good jobs. The less successful one have less fluent English speaking skills and generally seem to be more conservative. As far as integration is concerned, I find that the very conservative ones, with long beards on the men and burkhas on the women, must certainly be a draw back in getting a good job, let alone social integration. Finally, I think this nationality level analysis needs to be further broken down to look at distributions of income and % employed levels for each nationality by different age ranges, education ranges, level of fluency in English, years in Canada etc.
BRR May 16, 2012 01:56pm
The plain facts pointed to by the writer are: a) There should have been better assimilation into the society by Pakistani immigrants b) They don't fare as well as other immigrants (even though others responding here blame others but not themselves for this) c) It must be something in the culture they bring, or the education they fail to acquire
AHA May 16, 2012 10:53am
A few thoughts: Some of this has to do with undisclosed income. Many Pakistani-origin Canadians like to ‘fly below the radar’. The Canadian immigration policy was misleading. What they needed was manual labor, and what they asked for was high intellect. I feel very sorry for the highly educated Pakistanis driving taxis. Worse, many of them are just jobless. The Canadian economy is structurally inefficient – just compare the cost of living here versus the United States (even New York, one of the World’s most expensive cities). The only reason why Canada (as a whole) is doing well is because of its rich resources. But that puts an upward pressure on its currency, and makes its manufacturing and even services uncompetitive. Most Pakistanis live in the Greater Toronto area. Ontario as a whole will become poorer.
Malik May 16, 2012 10:54am
Here is the thing. Immigration and Citizenship Canada most likely got their numbers from Canada Revenue Agency. If there are so many Pakistani taxi drivers then average wage for Pakistani Immigrants falls around at least $20,000 pushing them just above immigrants from Italy and same is true for Immigrants from India. This is because most cab drivers either don`t report their Income or report minimum income so they do not owe any taxes. Having said that It is also true some Pakistani Immigrants bring their outdated cultural practices with them and don't want to integrate into the society thus are burden on the social system.
Eeman May 16, 2012 01:12pm
I seriously doubt the credibility of findings.
Sabir May 16, 2012 11:06am
Can anyone help me by showing the right path for job.I am Fresh graduate in Mechanical Engineering. So, which country will be better for me to take job.
Amir May 16, 2012 04:47pm
I am a Canadian Pakistani. Pakistani's in canada try to find shortcuts and get rich quick ways to success. They under report there income . They have a bad attitude and look down upon all other people, especially non muslims. There family values are also inconsistent with Canadian values. There do not want to assimilate within the social fabric of Canada. IMajority of the Pakistanis living in Canada do not have a single Canadian friend. No wonder Canada does not want any more Pakistani immigrants. They have a bad attitude. The bring their bad behaviour here as well. Canada is one of the most wonderful countries of the world. Please come here only if you want to have a better life with social justice and freedom and not try to change it to make it the same as in Pakistan.
Arif May 16, 2012 11:12am
Its absolutely same situation in Australia
munawar May 16, 2012 11:52am
Feel sorry for highly educated Pakistanis driving cabs in Canada. They might feel proud to be Canadian, no matter doing laboruous jobs, yet it is an option they chose themselves.
n.qureshi May 16, 2012 11:58am
i live in the us.i think the failure of the pakistani people to become a part of the society is due to there social and religious problems.this self segregation is evident all over the world.they should either embrace the new culture or not come here.i witnessed this in pakistan growing where the new immigrants did not become a part of the society,learn the look at the result after 60 years in sindh.
Mirza May 16, 2012 01:55pm
How come the Pakistanis are so successful in USA. Most immigrants of Pakistani origin are doing so well in USA. They came with the same values as the their Canadian counterparts. USA gave more opportunities and there is zero discrimination in USA. Please dont blame Pakistan and the society for it. It has to do with more then that.
Naveed Lotia May 16, 2012 06:08pm
VSP, how do you know this? Are there some facts & analysis behind your comments is this pure prejudice?
Taxi Driver May 16, 2012 01:02pm
Would you rather be picked up by an educated, polite taxi driver or an uncouth, brash, rude taxi driver. And I may be wrong in my conclusion, but it seems that Taxi Drivers should not be educated.
mrb695 May 16, 2012 02:53pm
These numbers are just fake. People , especially self employed, donot report their actual incomes. If a taxi driver is living under the poverty line, how come they can afford a mortgage? Taxi drivers make a lot of money, all cash, especially in Toronto. People work cash jobs and also receive benefits from the government.
mahmoud May 16, 2012 01:54pm
Strongly disagree, with you, Edmonton is a wonderful city with a thriving Pakistani community. If a doctor chooses to work as a cook, rather than getting his certifications, this is his own choice.
MHA May 16, 2012 01:54pm
The article has shown only one side of the story, it not fault of Canadian Government or Canadian Economy if someone is not ready to work hard. Every country has its own standard of professional education, no two countries has same standards for same professions. I will give an example, if Canadian Chartered Accountant come to Pakistan even he has to pass few exam before he is allowed to work as a professional, same is true for Pak CAs who move to Canada. MY experience of Pak & Middle Est and Pak Education was accepted, just I had to do pass few exams, which I did. If one is ready for some hard work to lean for a while he can definitively succeed. Its my personal experience, you need to plan and be ready to work hard. Nothing wrong in immigrating to Canada, its beautiful country with a lot of opportunities.
MTA May 16, 2012 02:53pm
Have you lived in New York?
Johar May 16, 2012 02:59pm
I am a Pakistani Canadian and noticed Pakistani lacking soft sills: 1) whe you ask them what type of job would you like. their answer "just get me in any type" 2) They lack communication skills and are defensive. 3) They lack salary negociation skills. 4) Resume and spelling errors in emails etc. 5) They also give up and do not do net working but focus on saving and feeding the family. 6) Cash jobs and saving taxes exist in any community, will say even higher in some other community. Mostly not polite and lacking customer skills in business.
Humayoun May 16, 2012 01:28pm
The article is a true reflection of the current situation of Pakistani-born Canadians, and will continue for a forseeable future. The groups that are doing well are those who have changed the "home-country" mentality.That also includes Pakistanis who are successful in Canada. In my opinion, Pakistanis MUST shed the baggages they brought from the old country. I do not agree that Canada is anymore anti-Islamic than any other country(ies).
AHA May 16, 2012 01:28pm
Long live Pakistan. I disagree with the rest of your comment.
shiraz May 16, 2012 01:30pm
Lazy Pakistanis are making bad name for themselves and other hardworking Pakistanis. I feel ashamed that these people are called Pakistanis. Pakistan is such a beautiful and lovable country but some bad fish is making it look like the worst country on planet.
Kamran May 16, 2012 05:57pm
There are Pakistani-Canadians who hail from educated backgrounds, have worked hard all their lives and are able to assimilate. They are the other 56%
Mahmoud May 16, 2012 01:35pm
There are great opportunities for Pakistanis in Canada who are willing to adopt and learn. Many choose to rely on social security rather than growing professionally and updating their trade skills. Majority prefers to stay near urban areas with more Pakistanis, instead of exploring opportunities in small towns and rural areas.
Suhail Ahmad May 16, 2012 01:39pm
The data is badly date and of no use today. IMO, Pakistani-Canadians are mostly self-employed and are reporting less income to avoid taxes. At least from our exuberant lifestyle here, you will not be able to determine if anyone of us is living below poverty line. Single earning males in a family of 4-6 is definitely an issue with us Pakistanis only.
Darawal May 16, 2012 01:41pm
That is an interesting perspective.
VSP May 16, 2012 01:42pm
Very informative article. I have heard many times in Canada that if you want to take maximum benefits from governments then follow a pakistani. They say why to work when government pays them and then do a cash job also. Some pakistani are good and do not follow this pattern but mostly do the same and learn to take more money from govt benefits and pass on the knowledge to newcomers.
Srini (San Jose,CA) May 16, 2012 01:44pm
Author has mixed up things while comparing Indians and Pakistanis in Canada. You can compare at low-income category as both communities do similar jobs at the level like cab driver, security guard etc.. However author also compared percentage of people owning homes,their wages which include rich where Indians are way ahead , working as businessmen,software engineers, doctors,investor,bankers,lawyers,....
mahmoud May 16, 2012 01:45pm
Past work experience will not get you a good job in Canada, some of the most successful Pakistanis I have seen in Canada were in senior positions when the left Pakistan, started again from entry level positions in Canada, got the local certifications, but did not leave their profession for any short cuts.
Aamir May 16, 2012 06:34pm
Most of Pakistani immigrants come at the age of above 50 and have active health issues. They are already on Pakistan retirement income or on with pay leave from a Pakistan government office. How can you expect at this age be a part of a different system. He struggles and eventually gets onto Gas station jobs with the hope his teen age children finishes their university and a good time will come. Most of us are from labour class and don't know even how to sell a single cigrate pack. Immigrants of this age group have already spent over their half work life and are not able to milk this Canadian cow any more. The only exceptions are business owners who make money in this country.
Zia May 16, 2012 06:37pm
What are you talking...... these figures were based on comparative data.....
ahmad May 16, 2012 06:37pm
pakistanis work on cash that is undeclared income and then next year declare low income and get get government support. Also it is lie to declare less income and also a crime. many engineerts and doctors and other educated people have no desire to work for respectable positions. they just take pride in driving taxis etc. They do not reeducate thus end up in meagre jobs. Pakistanis are anyways a failed state in every respect so as a nation their character is disappointing and shameful.
Israr Ahmed May 16, 2012 06:43pm
IPakistanis are very hard working people, but there are so many problems why Pakistanis are not integrating in the society and not getting good jobs. There are language barriers, cultural barriers, lack of training, lack of ambition, and lack of motivation from the community organisation. Once I see the easy way to get money why would I work hard and get the difficult dollars. And yes , Taxi drivers earn a lot of money, they just dont show it . To me the solution is that Pakistanis should be registered with ONE organisation, and leave their differences behind. By the way Sikh community is very similar, they do all the good things and bad things as we do, but the comparision did not just talk about sikhs as a unit in the stats of this article it was about india as a whole so dont mislead by bragging too big about Sikhs, they are good people and bad people equally.
Faisal May 16, 2012 06:45pm
I think most Pakistani' when they brought their reserves(money), they have fear that it will lost quickly so instead of concentrating in their field, they try to get an odd job and start making money. And this is the 1st turning point, because as soon as you switch your field and you are earning then peoples think that it is ok for them. One of my friend pharmacist, he really face very hard time and after 5 years he got the license. However most peoples give up, becuase family, house expense? 3rd thing, some of the people come without adequate professional experience in their field. One thing I wants to mention here is Canadian govt. is doing very good job in settling the immigrants. And if immigrant get good advice in start, it is not difficult to get job in their field. Last thing is, we also should pray to Allah for help
Aamir May 16, 2012 06:47pm
Very well said. Thanks for details. This is exactly a true picture and we need to learn our lesson. One thing for sure. IF YOU WANT TO EARN A HIGH STATUS IN THIS COUNTRY, NOTHING WILL NOT STOP YOU. HERE AT LEAST WE DON'T HAVE OUR COMMON DISEASES (BRIBERY, LIES, SHIFAARASH ETC..) YOU HAVE TO BE HONEST TO YOURSELF!!!
Omar May 16, 2012 06:52pm
Its actually because of Pakistani's that the attitude of employers has changed over the years. If an employer hires a Senior Manager with Pakistani experience only to find out a month later that it was all a lie...he will not make that mistake again. Paks are more likely to make up fake experience and fake degrees than any other immigrant community making it worse for all. I interact with a lot of recruiters and it always the same story about immigrants...especially pakistani.
Aamir May 16, 2012 06:54pm
The data may be old but the latest reaction may be a basis. Pls. read below article latest appeared in the Canadian newspapers showing 65% Pakistani immigrants cases dropped.Somewhere we have not been faithful. How will we stop this? We don't have our voice? Yes we are Pakistani Canadian as an Individual but we are no one when comes to a group.
Omar May 16, 2012 06:56pm
HAHAHAHAHA...You are absolutley wrong Shiraz, most Pakistani's are lazy...its in our genes. Also wrong on the beutiful and lovable part but thats a different debate.
Nick May 16, 2012 06:58pm
its not just that they are not declaring their actual income but also getting money from the Govt. for child support. as most of the pakistani or i would say Muslims have upto six children. Canadian govt. does surveys and they know it is the pakistani muslims misusing the system. i know a qualified guy from pakistani living in Govt. accommoation for the lower icome people driving a taxi; making enough money and getting child support for his 5 kids by not declaring his income BUT he has paid of house worth $300,000. but i have seen his living standards, its like living in hell(as a sikh I do not beleive in hell or heaven). But question is :what will his children grow into, what will they do when they grow up, how will they face this moderen world?
Mandeep May 16, 2012 07:00pm
I am living in Canada for past 13 years and I disagree with author's views. There are oppurtnities in Canada but you got to qualify to encash them. Most of Pakistanis have a huge attitude problem and think very high of themselves and their religion. In my 13 years here in various neigbhourhoods, I have never seen a Pakistani working hard in his lawn or washing his car but you will always see them reading newspapers and offering strong views on almost every issue. Most popular topics are conspiracy theories, how Canada is heading towards complete moral destruction and how shameless the humans are Or which welfare scheme one is eligible for, how not to pay taxes or how to get your relatives immigration!!!!
Mandeep May 16, 2012 07:01pm
Cont. This kind of attitude is not going to help you succeed. If you talk to 10 new immigrants coming from India and Pakistan.. you will see distinct difference in their attitude and communication. Why only Canada, anywhere perhaps with exception of missle east, Indian immigrants are doing better than Pakistani immigrants. Another probelm is " our women don't work". Until unless you have 2 incomes per household you can't prosper in Canada. Yes, if you are top earning professional it is different story. So there is a probelm with Pakistanis, not Canada, Murtaza Sahib.
omar May 16, 2012 07:01pm
Lets face it guys: We are a lazy people and very few of us have the motivation to work hard to succeed The state of Pakistani education system is a shame and cannot be taken seriously in any other country We all lied about pakistani work exp and education WE ARE THE PROBLEM...the first step to rehabilitation is recognizing this.
waqas May 16, 2012 07:04pm
One biggest problem with Pakistani Immigrant is that when they come to Canada, they land in Toronto, than some long distance taxi driver friend of theirs pick them up from the airport and takes them to Thorncliffe, where they end up living with the losers and driving taxis. (Thorncliffe is the HQ of taxi business, 99% who lives there drive a taxi!!) And than they dont wanna get out this world coz they make cash money, report low income and get full child benefits and other welfare aids. Basically they are all eating haram there. Taxi driver makes 4000$ a month cash, plus 500$ for each kid, on avg they have 4 kids so thats 2000$ free money from govt. Plus a few months in a year they go on welfare too while keep driving taxi as well so thats another 1200$ a month. So now tell me who would like to leave this attractive business.....Its a shitty job, no social status, no benefits no nothing, but we don't care, as long as cash is coming!!! Now about the jobs, yes you can get a job, ...move to other provinces where there is shortage of skilled labour. But if you wanna live in Thorncliffe, driving cab while wearing shalwar kameez than its your choice! Jobs are there, Canadian society is open to take you, but u guys gotta make an effort! Its a myth that they don't give us jobs, or proper jobs are for born Canadian only.
Simon May 16, 2012 07:04pm
Like someone else said above, ISLAM is not the issue here, my friend ! Not every Pakistani lives in jails here in Canada. Opportunities are not given out on a gold platter; when you see it, you have to grab it and make good use of it. If you love Pakistan so much with its living standard what it is, stay there and be happy. If you prefer to live in the West, be prepared to leave behind some old baggages; change your mind set; respect others, irrespective of whether they are Muslims or otherwise ; get used to the idea that both the husband & wife have to work, at least initially; Change your habits a little here & there by observing others ; Live lawfully ; then you don't have to worry about cops coming & knocking on your doors. Keep religion at home; it helps a lot ! Simon.
R.M.R K May 17, 2012 08:01am
Thanks a lot Babajaan. very good post. I wish all Pakistanis must think this and work towards this. I am 2009 applicant my wife is Radiologist with only two kids. We both are professionals but frustrated because what is going on in our country. Thats why applied for Canadian immigration but its taking too long for even people like us. I wish our elders would have played their right role then we would have not faced this. We were so fed up that finally we moved to Riyadh and my immigration interview is asked in May 2012 and lets see what happens although I have already got Provisional Acceptance from Canadian High Commission in Islamabad in Jan 2010.
Aamir May 16, 2012 07:10pm
Home Sweet Home... We immigrate due to Corruption diseases in our country. One man whole life spent in giving his blood not just paseena to serve his homeland and could not make one single house at end of career. Whereas my next door patwari - metric pass has a great house based on his corruption income. No one call him corrupt. My eyes are in tears.. we understand but no one say a single word... TODAY if Canada opens 1 million visas, you will find at least billion people in line fighting with each other to get it :)
Raja May 16, 2012 07:12pm
Absolutely right! I am from Delhi and I have the greatest respect for the Sikh community. Work hard, Live well and do community service. Even in hardest of times you will not find a Sikh begging. Its easy to find excuses and blame others for our misfortunes
Shah May 16, 2012 07:15pm
Disagree with your negativity Indian. Always look for a better future! Pray to Allah, remember your family and Pakistan and work HARDER. Our great Qaid's guiding principles for Pakistanis: "Faith, Unity, Discipline" I live in a city in North West Europe with highly educated, wealthy and God loving Pakistanis. In contrast we have imported indians (IT) but their job contracts are short term and low paid.
Pathanoo May 16, 2012 07:24pm
malik100 May 16, 2012 07:29pm
I have been living in Canada for more than 3 years. At first I tried to find a job to the best of my ability but after some phone interviews I gave up. I have a MS in engineering from US and around 15 years of experience. However it seems like the employers here want me to start from KG again and get my education again. I refuse to do that as I have been through this in the US. Now if the tax payer have to care for me then so be it. Sorry but I am not going to sweep or clean dishes.
Aamir May 16, 2012 07:30pm
Do you know why we are cab drivers in Canada? We will be fool if we go by the job... bahi look into the pocket and cash money, high take home without paying any tax to government. An average Tax driver earns $ 3500 - 4000. This is the same earning an IT professional will earn in a month. Now if you a Truck driver in Canada, your take home earning is $ 10000 -12000 a month. You fool government by paying lowest tax. Govt. stats will say Pakistani immigrants are poor but I have a neighbour who bought recently a 700,000 house with a monthly mortgage of $3500/month. Now how can he afford this but apparently he does. We cry over the odd job but does not look at the massive cash he is bringing home shows less income more child benefits, school and medical free. What else he needs. Sametime, he would have a nice villa (1 - 2 corore) in Lahore or Karachi. Who says we are poor.. Yes in Govt. records ONLY!!!
ali May 16, 2012 07:32pm
Job situation is pretty glim these days. Try the middle east. If you want to come to western countries you will need to get admission for MS and only then you will move forward. Try getting into a US university.
nasir May 16, 2012 07:36pm
Yes US gives you much better opportunities. Atleast there is not much discrimination when it comes to jobs. I had an almost illiterate CAD person from Pakistan in my office who learned Autocad on his own and had a $60000 job. Americans only care if you know your job and dont care about credentials or race color or creed.
malik100 May 16, 2012 07:38pm
Agree. US zindabad.
PKR May 16, 2012 07:41pm
That seems quite true regarding Canadian Immigration and Citizenship Services. Few things need to be considered. Skilled workers qualify for immigration on point system, that includes job category, qualification, experience, and english proficiency. When applying from home country, they are unaware of job market in Canada. For them job categories sited by CIC and approval of immigration sounds as being in a category of demand, but on arrival in Canada do not find a place. So if Manual Workers are needed, Skilled Workers need not be allowed immigration. This not only brain drains the underdeveloped countries, the countries paving a way for their prosperity, but also throws these immigrants in desparate circumstances, who then end up with jobs like security, manual labor or drivers, though being highly qualified and skilled. This also raises a question regarding the coordination between CIC and different ministries - what sort of workers do they need?
Pathanoo May 16, 2012 07:48pm
Asif Saheb, Canada Thanks you for leaving. And, I Thank you for your convictions. At least you had the guts to leave and not just be an ingrate, like many other Pakistanis and foreigners, who just whine and complaint but love the welfare money and easy life so much that they never leave. No one twisted your arm to go to Canada. You don't like it, go back to where you came from.
Dr. Rehman May 16, 2012 08:04pm
best advice
Hariharan.S May 16, 2012 08:09pm
We,Indian Hindus, are forever indebted to the Brave Sikh brothers who fought valiantly against the invading Islamic rulers and prevented the Islamification of India.... Even after the crushing of Khalistani movement and Delhi genocide,you have decided to work constructively for the country rather than trying to brainwash your group to act against India
lubna May 16, 2012 08:09pm
It is unscientific to produce old data and draw conclusions since many pakistanis. Struggling in 2005 must have been successful in the interim as I know many doctors who in this space of time have succeeded either here in Canada or went to USA for residency or some got jobs in middle east.the children of pakistanis born parents are mostly aiming for universities compared to the original Canadian families children but/can the pakistanis culture and family push and support for higher education compared to locals.hence the picture is not bleak but definitely need is true to get assimilated in new countries of immigration but Canada unlike USA is not a melting pot rather most of its immigrants maintain their cultural identity so nothing wrong in that rather multiculturalism is supported by far the English language is concerned pakistan are far better than Chinese,vietnamis and east europians.many pakistan wives dl baby. Sitting at home and work great from home is common in canada
Pathanoo May 16, 2012 08:13pm
Let us get some facts straight..... 1) Canada is NOT anti-Muslim or they can simply stop you from entering. So, stop the nonsense. 2) Canada is NOT anti-Pakistani or they simply can stop issuing the visa. So, stop the lunacy. 3) Why would any country take in people from a country or a religion if they hate either of them. That country would have to be most schizophrenic. I don't believe Canada is....... NO, I know Canada is NOT. It is a great country. I worked very hard. I did not blame the Americans. I knew this society was fair. More fair than any in the world....not prerfect though, just to be sure. Today, I am reitred very comfortably. I worked for the world's best and one of the largest aerospace companies and was one of the 23 highest people in my business. No one discriminated against me or my religion. show me how fair is Pakistan to Shias, Ahmadias, Hindus, Christians and other minorities. You have the gall to complain. No one twisted your arm to come to Canada.
Shariq May 16, 2012 08:20pm
I totally agree with Singh but that might not be the case for a Pakistani family living in the west!
Atan May 16, 2012 08:35pm
Depends how you define poverty. In India or Pakistan, you could be starving and still be above the poverty line. In Canada you don't get to buy a new car every 4 years and your below the poverty line. Povery can be subjective. The truth is a poor Pakistani in Canada is still way better then a poor Pakistani in Pakistan. If the poor in Pakistan could they would swim all the way to Canada to be a 'poor Pakistani in Canada'.
A.H. Raheem May 16, 2012 08:47pm
I lived in Canada for 3 years, then finally ended up coming back to Pakistan. I would add my own experience. some friends says "Pakistanis don't mingle with other cultures,resulting lack of social network which is very much important in Canada and all over the world to land with a nice job". I simply wouldn t accept that as for as my personal experience is concerned. Some said they are not liberals, having lack of spirit , orthodox Muslims, culturally shocked etc etc etc...... WELL !! I respect your opinion but is totally not the case with Pakistani students (got immigration) between age 20- 30. They are as liberal as others, They did pretty much adopt the culture thu. & I was one of them !!! So what really went wrong with me and my other fellow countrymen in Canada? I leave it to all of you who live there.... Hint : Electronic & Print media." The greatest evil of this century" Besides all what happened with me , I still miss & love TORONTO. I still miss cold winter & medium double double at Tim Hortons
Amir May 17, 2012 01:24pm
In my opinion, most Pakistanis came here as they were rebellious of the society in Pakistan and for the seek of better future for themselves and their generations to come. However along with them came the moral corrupts as well, which are large in numbers. I don't understand if they love their motherland so much, why they came here at first place or why not atleast make an attempt to leave
khan May 16, 2012 09:12pm
It is hard to find a job if you are not an indian..
S.Sachdev May 16, 2012 09:38pm
Mr. Murtaza, The title of your article is: Pakistani-Canadians: Falling below the poverty line. I am amazed that you have blatantly turned it into a Pakistani/Indian comparison. You, who is a member of the teaching faculty of a good school have turned this subject into a shallow discussion. I am amazed how low you think of your fellow Pakistanis, and how jealous you are of Indo-Canadians.
Syed May 16, 2012 09:40pm
God Bless you man as a Pakistani pursuing an Engineering degree in the USA I agree with what you said 110%. This is sound advice for all young Pakistanis out there.
MJ Siddiqui May 16, 2012 09:58pm
Great attitude brother .... I wish you the best in the future.
Mohsin Tarar May 18, 2012 08:10am
Hard but smart work is the key to success. No matter where you are, if you work hard and think smart, you would be successful and please stop blaming the system atleast outside pakistan.....Great Jinnah once said work,work and work, now some times i wonder was he the leader of such a nation who only know how to blame others for their ignorance and failure...
Saeed Kauser May 16, 2012 10:04pm
That guy categorically states that 44% of Pakistani-Canadians live below the poverty line. That is wrong information. Most Pakistan in Canada are actually fairly well off. Let's see if this writer can back up his claims with actual facts or he's pulling the data out of thin air. It's unfortunate that Dawn newspaper published this without confirming it. Figures like this may be true for Pakistanis in Britain as many immigrants there were uneducated villagers but it's definitely not true about Pakistanis in Canada and America as the people who moved there were mostly educated. This guy is claiming that almost half of Pakistanis in Canada are living below the poverty line, while almost all the Pakistanis I know are quite well off. So where are all the poor ones? There's a big discrepancy there.
Mukhtar May 16, 2012 10:05pm
Thats rightly said Mr.Singh but in addition to this instead of upgrading their education to meet the Canadian job market requirements we stuck in cycle of only maintainingour basic family requirements instead of taking risk and get addmission in universities get financed and upgrad their education to required higher level. Lack of networking and reluctantness is also a big factor. We Pakistani Canadians have to solve all these hurdles in order to become success ful Canadians.
Saeed Kauser May 16, 2012 10:06pm
I've searched every reference the guy provides and I've read every publication cited by him and there's no confirmation of his data. I'm willing to believe the information but I need to see the source of the data. The data is simply not there where he says it should be. So for now I believe this guy is wrong.
s shah May 16, 2012 10:07pm
excellent advice. you have thought well and deeply about this matter! thanks!
imran May 16, 2012 10:13pm
i think pakistanis all over the world are in the same condition. we Pakistani's face most Discrimination in Pakistan than any where else, this is about time to really understands our religion. we are one of the most uneducated people in the entire world and we do not even understand Quran as well, its our own responsibility to learn and acquire knowledge , just think about it why IQRA is the first revelation on our Prophet(P.B.U.H).
Shahid May 16, 2012 10:30pm
A lot such reports do not reflect the reality on ground. Anyone who thinks cab drivers make any less money than an engineer are greatly mistaken. The system in US/Canada considers cab drivers as low income occupations but most of their earnings are cash, thus there is no way for the government to verify their actual income. Also, there is a trend that cab drivers like to keep their families back home in Pakistan to benefit from the dollar value back home. A lot of Pakistanis declare themselves as low income just to benefit from the system. I have lived at different levels in the american society for 11 years (Starting as a student, working odd jobs and now i am a manager at a multi national IT organization) and now i am in Canada. What i can assure you is that MOST Pakistanis in America and canada are doing very well, in a stark contrast to the above mentioned article.
Sheerman May 18, 2012 06:52pm
Lead the world ! Where ?
Ali May 16, 2012 10:37pm
I am not rejecting your points but it is not all that green. Please check the comments under the Pakistani recent plane crash posted by Canadians to give you some insight. You are most will be accommodating but prejudice exist as it does in the middle east. Also remember we create our own image and the base is not solid yet.
austrianecon May 18, 2012 04:42pm
That's a very good point.
billal May 16, 2012 10:48pm
there are hardly any indians who are under poverty line ....some may exist in low income group but all indians do good irrespective of where they come from ....
Asif Mehmood May 17, 2012 03:12pm
Dear Azhar, Writer quoted this statistics from Statistics Canada (Govt of Canada agency). This is not one sided picture. This is the reality in Canada. You know only few relatives who are well off but Govt of Canada keeps track of each of us Pakistanis. I believe Murtaza Haider has depicted very realistic picture of Pakistanis in Canada.
mahmoud May 17, 2012 03:17pm
Still when Pakistani prime minister says to CNN "then why dont they leave, who is stopping them". Looking at the current situation, renaissance sounds like a distant dream.
Pathanoo May 18, 2012 04:34pm
Amused American May 16, 2012 11:17pm
What is this obsession with India? Surely the writer can make his points without invoking India in every other sentence... And sorry but listing "Ph.D" after your name, I am afraid, is not a very "Canadian" thing to do.
durrani May 17, 2012 07:48am
Great article and interesting comments.It is the mindset of people that will determine their success.look at Canada,USA,Mexico.Three neighbors.Canadian and American life standard is far better than Mexicans. Almost the same land,same religion,cultural values,same environment.but the European mindset is different than Mexican.strangely the world richest person Carlos Slim is from its not the luck,religion,color but how you think and adopt yourself.stop looking to things from the prisim of religion.and you pakistani will succeed.thats what i did as an your mind.
Rogue May 16, 2012 11:38pm
Im from Toronto and if you go out east to the Scarborough area you will be alot of Pakistanis and Somalians living in rental apartments with 3-4 kids, wife at home and Husband working. If you only have 1 person in the house working in a factory or driving a taxi you wont be able to afford a house, and if you do you wont own it the bank will. If you go Brampton where the indians life in the West its 90% indian owned and they are doing pretty well for themselves. The difference is adapting to where you are.
Paresh May 18, 2012 06:51pm
Anytime I meet a Pakistani - I cannot help but sense his "Greater than thou" attitude even if he is down in the dumps. It would help the Pakistanis a lot if they leave in Pakistan their false pride about everything from fair color, race, language and of course - RELIGION !
AAhmed May 16, 2012 11:44pm
Fully Agree
CanadianMuslim May 16, 2012 11:54pm
wrong, children get Canada child benefit roughly 400-500 dollars per month per child, and free medical/dental insurance if parents cant afford it as well as bursaries and grants for families with multiple children.
Hassan Shoaib May 17, 2012 05:05am
Excellent reply babajaan !! the true short cut to success :-) smile !!!
Saeed May 18, 2012 07:57am
This is only because of bad educational system of Pakistan. The country is not update with the modern education system therefore Pakistanis face the difficulty. As author said that most of Pakistani doctors are security guards and taxi drivers. This is only because of backward educational systems of Pakistan.
Qais May 17, 2012 12:16am
I don't agree with the author because he doesn't know how much these cab drivers are making, he needs to spend some time with these drivers. For professionals there is no short cut in Canada. Every Engineer / Doctor needs to pass the exam for getting the Professional License. Also for every professional upgrade is required and nobody likes to spend penny from their pocket to achieve skills and competency in their professions. If you are willing to come to the Canada then forget about your ex-job status and resign your job in Pakistan and be ready to jump in this professional world of ethics and justice where every professional shows due diligence and respects the law and the system. Nobody is asking you to stop practicing your religion and culture. Prove yourself as a hard worker, industrious and show your passion to learn even getting old.
mirza May 17, 2012 02:53pm
I am a Pakistan born Canadian and am proud of my adopted country. canadians are fair and relatively honest. But this is a highly developed western capitalist country. You have to have skills to survive. I put a simple question to my pakistani brothers. Why are Indians/chinese more successful (on average) than pakistanis. It is because their education and work ethics. Most pakistanis , whether engineers or doctors can not speak a full sentence in english. How can you succeed if you cant even speak the language They think that roads in canada are paved with gold . They are not. Life is hard here even for the native canadians.
Najmi May 17, 2012 12:42am
Brillaint comment. I agree with you 101% Bajwa Sahib....
ali May 18, 2012 06:36pm
A very large Indian community mostly from Punjab are working at minimum wage jobs mostly in security and general labor work in factories, language and customs are a big barrier for them.Cab drivers take home $300/400 per day but the other odd jobs pay around $ 85/115 depending on the province you live in.
Najoomi Baba May 17, 2012 12:45am
Short cuts. I agree with you. They want to be rich overnight. See here :
Waheed May 17, 2012 12:52am
I am an Engineering graduate from a third world country. After coming to Canada I realized that without "Professional Engineer (P.Eng.)" license I am not going to get an Engineer's position, therefore, I worked hard and got my P.Eng. license. Now I have a very good job as an Engineer. I am a extremely happy person, and thankful to Allah for His mercy. Initially things were not easy, I worked in factories and studied at the same time. I had a passion to succeed and did it. I meet a lot of successful people immigrants in Canada and they all got success through planned, dedicated hard works.
Vijay May 17, 2012 02:45pm
This is exactly the attitude which is in the base of all problems. You refuse to accept the facts and give it a twist, just to satisfy yourself.
CanadianMuslim May 17, 2012 12:55am
Makeing pedantic statments like you are expert on the topic, just last week The Canadians of Pakistani Origin (COPO) contributed 1.1 million to Stouffville Hospital in ontario,canada. Not bad for a bunch of "below the poverty" community.
asdf May 17, 2012 01:02am
could you please use a little more outdated data? this one is just too up to date.
Rai Amar Anwar May 17, 2012 01:05am
I think it is trade off short run over the long run. Mostly people and especially from third world enter in developed countries with an approach that they will pour the flow of central bank's currency (dollars) to their home. I found thousand of professionals who stick with their objective and attained even faced many hardships. The biggest problem I found is that thousand of Pakistanis don't know what they want to be in the long run (by profession) . They are waiting some one who could throw them in a particular field. They keep them in taxis, security or other odd jobs and by the time they get passport , they found neither to go back nor love to stay here in Canada.
CanadianMuslim May 17, 2012 01:09am
Mr. singh forgets that skihs are still monitored after the whole air-indian bombing fiasco, so are tamils and of course irish,serbs, arab, and muslims. Rather then correcting the numerous examples political tokenism and common sense(work hard and succeed) that Mr.Singh interprets as a recipe of deep-long term communal success i would instead ask mr. Singh this: Sikhs have been in canada for over 150 years, how many corporations are Sikh owned? how many of the richest Canadians are Sikhs,heck how many of over 120000 Canadian millionaires are Sikhs? Aboriginal Canadians are the poorest of the canada,they have more ethnics elected politicians then Sikhs,so what?Don't confuse tokenism with political power,even the british empire had puppet in the colonies.
Sweetdreams May 17, 2012 01:10am
Thats because the mullahs advise muslim people to procreate more so that they could increase the number and then get their rights. They use references from Quran to tell that family planning is unislamic and use quotes like "If God gives mouth to a baby,he will provide food also" But,food alone is not needed for every child.He needs good education to make his life better.But no way can a man having 4 or more kids can provide for them. Then,they use statistics like the one in blog and tell that the govt has systematically ignored muslims and tell them to fight for their justice.. This is happening in many of the countries where muslims are in minority. Unless,muslims escape from the clutches of mullahs.They will never improve and drag the economy and stability of the country they reside
Varinder Sidhu May 17, 2012 01:12am
I am an Indian Punjabi and I live in Vancouver .Pakistani suffer more because their background is from Pakistan and right now Pakistan reputation is realy bad. They even don,t want to tell that they are from Pakistan. Only to Indians they tell they are from Pakistan other wise most of them tell they are from India or hide their ID. I think it is very important if ours countries ( both India and Pakistan ) improve relation with each other and its positive side effects go everywhere. I wish for great realtation between India and Pakistan. I think if you work hard and then Canada is best country to live in, no matter from which coutry you came from.
Faisal Janjua May 17, 2012 01:17am
malik bhai incorprate yourself and become a consultant, very few pakistanis know that they have a better chance at landing a contract rather than landing a fulltime position. May Allah SWT help you.
Mansoor May 17, 2012 01:18am
Degree and experiene of a doctor is not acceptable here.Doctors do not approach here on Job visa.they get immigration as so called skilled experienced worker .When they go through all exams. They are told that they are overage and a fresh graduate is available at this post.Doctors with same qualification are serving in USA which is leader in medical profession and they are doing well.Many doctors in the past have moved from canada to Usa and werte very successful there.Here they would have benn a Cabbi.This slow medical system can not accomodate a comparable number of doctors.In USA ,UK and Australia pakistani doctors are not taken as inadequate
Sjk May 17, 2012 01:20am
I am from Pakistan. I graduated with engineering degree and after working few years in Pakistan migrated to Canada.spent about 4 years finding a reasonable consistent job but all in vain. Luckily I find an opportunity in USA and said good bye to Canada.For last 12 years I am working in USA and have never been laid off from job. I was totally failure in Canada but I am very successful in USA.I think there are other reasons behind this poverty dilemma for Pakistani community.
farrukh May 18, 2012 06:13pm
Hi Jay, It's not the matter of conservative or liberal mindset rather it's a common language which I used, just like the way in india "Bhagwan Ki Kirpa" is usually used, and it all Related to One allmighty God, weather be Allah, or Bhagwaan. I hope you understand. cheers
Farooq Khan May 18, 2012 06:08pm
The author has given a biased view of the situation. It is factually incorrect derogatory and condescending. It appears that the author himself is looking down on his own communtiy perhaps to reenforce his own insesecurites and low selfesteem. I find his message to be that I am better than the rest of you. Furthermore the data he presented has not been verified by Statistics Canada. This issue is being taken up with the Ryerson University administration. DAWN newspaper should be more careful about publishing articles such as this.
Ibn-e-Ashfaque May 17, 2012 02:17am
Farrukh good on you. You should be the role model for other Pakistanis.
PRN May 17, 2012 02:19am
Everything seems fine except point no 6!! On one hand you advise not to trust ignorant mullah's but on the other hand you say, that you will not succeed without allah's help!! How strange? Is religion so important to be a good human being? I dot not believe in allah at all but I think I am successful and many more people in this world! Humanity survived long before you came to know about you allah! How so? Think about it....before giving a lecture..
Mustafa May 17, 2012 02:30am
Excellent informative and thought provoking article by Murtaza Haider. There is no question about it that Pakistani immigrants to Canada go through vey difficult time but their children born in Canada and their future generation who grow up in Canada with Canadian education and skills as Canadians are equally successful like all born Canadians regardless of where their parents came from. In Toronto, Canada there are almost 100 mosques and Islamic Centres plus hundreds of Mussalah (Suites for Salaat) in many apartment buildings. There is no sectarian conflict in Muslims. As a matter of fact at least in one Islamic Centre Shias, Sunnis, even Ahmadis and followers of other firqas read Salaat together as one Muslim Ummah based on the command of Allah: "As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou has no part in them in the least...." (6:159)
Baba Sidni May 17, 2012 02:49am
I live in Australia nowadays. I have also lived in USA for over 4 years while studying, I opted to migrate to Australia instead of Canada, because of cold weather in Canada. I didn't look for job in the USA after completing may education as I was interested in going back to Pakistan and trying to make some difference to the society, against the advice of my friends. I couldn't, so I migrated, but still hope to go back and try again, in a few years. The situation is similar in Australia as well as other rich countries. With respect to the TAXI DRIVER who commented on this blog, and the saying "Alkasib o habib-ullah" roughly translated as "Hard worker is a friend of Allah". Those with good education and background would drive a taxi, or do the security guard duty in Canada, USA, Australia or any other developed country but won't consider doing that in Pakistan why? Because of the social stigma attached to this menial work. My friend the TAXI DRIVER in question, didn't even print his real name which could say that "TAXI DRIVER - Mr xyz" Most probably, he has told in Pakistan to his inner circle, that he is working there as an important officer, and the concerned department can't function properly without his input.
Omar May 17, 2012 02:51am
I am a Pakistani immigrant to Canada. True there are issues with regards to acceptance of particular experiences and qualifications but that is the case in the vast majority of the Western countries (the doctor example equally applies to the US and UK). Without pointing fingers, it must be taken into consideration that although Pakistan has great educational institutions - IBA, LUMS, Aga Khan, GIKI, King Edwards, etc - a lot of Pakistani students are not taught how to practically implement their education (I am not talking about ALL the graduates!). Furthermore, as a member of the community, I have also seen that our community is insular and inwards looking. This strikes me as really weird because, in my opinion, professional Pakistanis are really polished, sociable and extremely hard workers. Furthermore, most of our women (who happen to be extremely smart and enterprising) either don't work or are not allowed to work. There is absolutely nothing wrong with their abilities or intellect; merely a result of our outdated "values". We are extremely hypocritical about our "values" because we use them only when it is to our advantage. Instead of blaming a place where we have gone willingly (Canada didn't fill out your immigration forms) and where some problems exist, we should first look towards ourselves and our attitudes (which are insular, not at all accepting, by and large, and our adamant refusal to integrate into the wider culture). I'm sure people have had different experiences but we must realize immigrants choose to come to a particular country; Canada does not pick you up and force you to immigrate. Just my two cents :)
Jamil May 17, 2012 02:58am
The cultural shock and traditions is there but as a Canadian resident, I think the main source of problem is the lack of initiative from south asian communities. For example there are plenty of new Italian migrants in Toronto and many of them don't even know english properly but they have strong technical backgrounds (like Pakistani engineers and doctors who drive taxis). But they don't drive taxis, instead they work together to start their own businesses and companies (engineering , finance, etc) and are heavily involved in importing from their home countries. They are able to do this because their community is integrated and help each other and take initiative. South asian people are sorry to say kinda selfish and think individually. That is their main source of failure.
navid May 17, 2012 02:59am
We recenlty had the Besakhi meal. All I could see were only Sikhs and very few local people ( maybe 10-15 and that too with local born Sikh girls). We do wan to assimilate with locals but they tend to have some kind of xenophobia. Second generation tends to do better but I think it takes 3-4 generations to assimilate in any other country.
wYSe guy May 17, 2012 03:19am
I think Javed is correct in recommending students rather than families immigrate to Canada. Canada is extremely welcoming to hardworking young people of all backgrounds, and students, being in their late teens or early twenties, will find it easiest to adapt to Canada. This stands in contrast to entire families of people moving to Canada, with the parents, with their foreign, non-accepted qualifications, finding it difficult to adapt in Canada.
STH May 17, 2012 02:23pm
Very well said Raika45. I hundred percent agree with you what you have written.
Syed May 17, 2012 03:32am
True. Its all about our attitude. Look at Pakistanis how they want shortcuts in their lives. They love it.
abid aziz May 17, 2012 03:32am
Raza, you have described the topic very well. I came from middle east, after spending 27 years of my youth, I got a job of my choice within one month, We can not blame canadian govt. for anything its our own choice to come here, Even a taxi driver here enjoys a life which only a high govt servant can afford, that too if he is corrupt. Taxi drivers kids are going to top class school(better than choifat ) free of charge and govt. supports kids for their higher education.
BHB May 17, 2012 04:15am
Very good advice. Aim high. Be ambitious. Don't forget moral and family values. Choose your friends carefully. Assimilate with the larger society. Excellent advice.
ahmed May 17, 2012 01:50pm
There are different problems in every foriegn country you live in , and I believe no one will show 100% satisfaction to their places so lets see the good part and forget the rest If live in UAE very tough rules very tough policies which gives you every month end with some strange kind of charges some unjustified payments and fines and bla bla but when i compare with the place i came from if 1 have even 1% better option i will go back . But i feel other nationalities are better than us in all means we pakistanis may be very good or best in individual capacities but as a nation we are failure.
Aftab May 17, 2012 04:23am
is it possible to give the 2010 data instead of going for 2005 data. From decrease in immigration record by the writer/author, i got the idea that the author has also the 2010 data. 2005 data may be good for discussion but not relevant to the current conditions. As per my study, in 2010 the figures have improved alot with respect to earning figures. The author has tried to portray that India and Pakistanis are competitor. I will disagree with that. We are neighbor countries and are Asians. So we should support each other instead of trying to let each other down.
Aftab May 17, 2012 04:31am
i 100% agree. this writer is trying to discourage the Pakistanis.
Sher May 17, 2012 04:34am
Religion is the PROBLEM. full stop...... people coming from pakistan are mostly muslims and consider themselves superior to the rest of the world and THAT is a problem. leave your religion back home if you are looking for a better life in any western country. problem solved.
Dr. Qazi May 17, 2012 01:50pm
He is just saying you should meditate and not go to Mullahs for your salvation. Meditation and its connection with Allah, Bhagwa, God, Lord etc. helps out great. Poor Pakistanis in Canada rely too much on the Mullahs and Masjids. Instead (as per his advice) do the meditation at home and be pure. That's all,.
taharafai May 19, 2012 02:44am
Just in Edmonton there are around 300 Pakistani engineers (over 40 engineers in Alberta Transportation) are working in public/private sector with average salary over 100,000. The author just talked about Pakistani doctors: why. Are doctors from india, Britain and even from USA are getting jobs in their profession without writing exams, the answer is no. Two Pakistani MLAs from Edmonton are elected in the recent provincial election and one is nominated as Minister. __Over 95% of the Sikhs off course represent Indian community are truckers or cabians and their motto is "make money" as they have to import their parents, brothers, sisters by all means. I think Indians are less adaptive to Canadian culture and their living style can be witnessed in Surrey, Brampton, Edmonton and Calgary. __its 2012 and I am proud of being Pakistani and our performance as Canadian. __I will advise the author to use the recent data that will help the author to build his credibility. _
B S Pani May 17, 2012 04:55am
Shabir - the best country for you would be 'Pakistan' itself and the best profession would be to become an Entrepreneur! Difficult choice - your life would be hard but you next generation and the future of your country would be secured! As a mentor member of the Indian national Entrepreneurship Network (NEN) - I can assure you that if China, India and malyasia are doing better today - it is entirely due to their youth power and the strong entrepreneurship movements there in! BS Pani : Bhubaneswar :India
Shah May 17, 2012 05:11am
I am in Canada for the past thirty nine years. I have never been unemployed, I have never collected unemployment benefits and I have never collected Social benefits. I have not blamed anybody. I have looked at my weaknesses and have improved. I am very comfortable with Canadians and Canadians have always been very supportive. I am very thankful to the heavens for directing me to make Canada my home. I am retired and I am very happy - By the way I have not purchased a house. I do not buy what I do not need. I have learnt to live very simply and economically - but not miderly. Long Live Canada
junayd May 17, 2012 05:17am
the stats, facts and figures are there, still the lives of pakistanis are lot better in canada as compared to those in pakistan. majority of the pakistani immigrants in canada belonged to middle class in pakistan. for middle class, life without electricity is miserable in pakistan whereas there is no loadshedding in canada. this is just one example. its easy for them to feed, educate and provide medical care to their families in canada.
Nasir Shah May 17, 2012 05:20am
I am Pakistani and stayed in Canada for ten years. As an engineer immediately after arrival in 1999 I felt that it will be hard to get professional job here. Our whole group of engineers targeted US and we got degrees, professional licences and experience from USA. With Canadian passport and professional credentials from North America the place place to is to move to Middle East where these credentials are highly valued and large majority of Asian immigrants follow this path. Even I got US green card in 2008 but Canada and US were not worth for my profession. I guess people who have their business or are in field if economic or financial have better financial prospects in north America than engineers.
taharafai May 19, 2012 02:44am
1/2 Dear Author: this article is based on 2005 census data. I will dare to disagree with the findings of this article. I am Engineer by profession and my wife is doctor by profession in Canada. Majority of the Pakistanis immigrated to Canada in 2000-2001 and I am one of them. 2005 data represents the time period when majority of the Pakistanis were new in Canada.__
Pathanoo May 18, 2012 04:39pm
Way to go, Jay. You hit the nail on the head.
S. Hasan Mujtaba May 18, 2012 10:48am
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 11:54am
I have seen engineers with incredible skill and others who are not good engineers and accept a lower wage. It is all relative to one's competency. A degree is just a piece of paper. That is why good references are necessary as well. The Scottish immigrant who held a monopoly on steel production in the United States, Andrew Carnegie said, "Education is what you have left over, after you have forgotten everything you learned."
Jamil Irshad May 17, 2012 05:28am
I am a Pakistan born Canadian whois living here for 2 years. I am an MBA from LUMS. I was a very senior banker in Pakistan at the level of AVP. I was heading Faisal Bank and City Bank as top management. I cam to Canada only for my childern and now working as a teller at RBC Bank. I had executive car with a driver in Lahore and here my kids go on a bus. I lived a grand life in Lahore and here a life pay cheque to Pay cheque with no enjoyment or disposable income. Domestic arguments and other financial pressures have made me 10 years older. I will agree with Asif, Canada only suits a few but not all..
m.ahmed May 17, 2012 05:30am
Thank you..this is mostly whqt I hqve tried to do and it has Alhamdolillah worked. best advice!
Shah May 17, 2012 05:32am
Sir, Please do not say so. When I came to Canada some 39 years from now - I received the best support from a Pakistani Gentleman. and I have always remained grateful to him. Iam getting along very well with Pakistanis and I must say they are a very nice people. Whenever I meet them they always give me a good hug.
Rais Alam May 17, 2012 05:33am
Your spiel makes it clear that you are not fit for living anywhere else but Pakistan. I am a Muslim from India and have lived in Canada for 8 years. It's a truly great country.
Imran May 17, 2012 05:46am
Finally a logical man :). Alhamdullilah found the only good comment so far in these comments section. I wish there were more people like you who were actually positive & not negative all the time. I agree we Pakistani have done a lot of bad things, but we can change and we don't want to give up our values. I live in Canada, but I want to come back to Pakistan and my plan is to come back after I complete my education Inshallah. And once again thanks for the invitation to come back, you are a great person :)
Asim May 17, 2012 05:50am
Most of these people do not live here and give comments on how life is like here. I live here so I understand what you had to go through. It isn't as accepting as these people think it is. If you are corrupt then yes you can succeed here because that is what the system here is only capable of doing.
Mohammed Iqbal May 17, 2012 05:53am
Very good Article, and great feed back from people. All the people who wants to get out of the hell hole can educate themselves reading this blog. Come on Pakistani people you are in 21st century. Act accordingly.
Imad May 17, 2012 06:00am
Well said!
Yasin May 18, 2012 05:20pm
Pakistanis don't get job even with Pakistanis due to their attitude and even bring in religion even in social and professional conversation, for no reason, even when it is not required. The responsibility falls on Pakistani employer who sometime fail to mentor them and hire other people. This occurs because the restaurant owner is well established and have already instilled Canadian work ethics and go for these in other non-Pakistani employees. They don't have time to build social network with new immigrants. The new immigrant comes here with lot of baggage of his own and no work ethics as compared to immigrants from other countries. I don't blame them; whoever, I would urge them to mentor new Pakistanis and help them realize the work ethics and values in this country.
hsd May 17, 2012 06:10am
have a goal follow that,watch their sports, read there newspaper get into activities get a cashier job for start ,get communication skills thru that , adopt there culture but dont forget yours respects your parents, say your prayer, stop watching desi dramas, communicate with people doesnt matter if they ignore thats how you gonna learn, and please dont buy honda or toyota only;)
RWD May 18, 2012 05:14pm
Very well narrated - but stolen material. There is no mention that the writer gathered data from real people - not the fake who don't show the real money they make by driving Cabs. There are no comments from the real people who complained about the circumstances - they are all happy - hiding money from CRA and stealing money from banks, people and system.
a.i.nasir May 17, 2012 06:23am
Now that's sensible...way to go bro
Dinesh May 18, 2012 05:10pm
I guess you didn't get his point. Instead of thanking God for the good things that the developed countries give you, why not thank the people who produced the good things. Yes, the residents of the country have worked hard to create a great country that you (even with all your prayers) could not create. Your attitude is symptomatic of a third world mentality which keeps us in a rut.
ali May 17, 2012 06:34am
'Go back to your own country'. Have not heard this for some time. But I am not going and am determined to be a burden on this society.
Wadood May 17, 2012 06:47am
Asif Khan… I have been in Canada for more than 14 years now and whatever you saying are not my experience in Canada, I am very grateful to Canada and will be for rest of my life. Canada is the greatest place on earth but it is not for everybody. You are accusing Canada about being anti-Islam and I totally disagree with you because a person like you gives Islam a bad name. Islam is asking you to work accordingly to your ability and there is nothing wrong driving a taxi or being a security guard, if you think you are too good for doing hard work and halal earnings. You should be in Pakistan and it needs you very badly and it is lacking corrupt people. My understanding from your article about you is you wanted things to happen in Canada like you would do in your motherland Pak, steal, robe and lots of corruption and you couldn’t do it in Canada that is why you didn’t liked being there. I hate hypocrites and I find almost everyone is hypocrite in Pak and you must be one of them. My experience in what you call beloved motherland Pak is like being in a hell, I am glad that you are not in Canada and it doesn’t need people like you.
Neena May 17, 2012 07:06am
US allows immigration only for well educated ppl (from any country)..
Wajid May 18, 2012 04:56pm
Obviously not a good sign. Although it depicts grim picture, it is misleading because it just describes in percent whereas total number of immigrant is missing that should be in perspective. According to that total 55000 (124000 45%) Pakistani immigrants are under poverty line whereas 200000 (1000000 20%) Indian are under poverty line. I am not making a case for who is better, just identifying that sometimes numbers can be tricky...
taharafai May 19, 2012 02:49am
if you are engineer and do not get job in Alberta, I swear, something wrong with you and not with Canada. My cousin just moved from Toronto to Calgary and had three job offers in two two weeks
Zain May 19, 2012 05:49am
Very True article. I want to give a high five to Mr. Haider for accurately reflecting on the very real issue. It not only high lights a very real issue but also can let those people with some insight see what is holding Pakistan back from making progress. Western Societies like Canada/US/Western Europe/Australia all are highly successful societies which highly value Evidence Based Scientific analysis for basis of every business, medical, social models which they then implement. These societies will remain on the top, as long as they value honesty and ethics which are basis of any science.
Zain May 19, 2012 05:49am
I have lived in the US for the past 22 years now. Immigrated here as a kid when I 12 years old with Parents. I first gotten BBA (Finance), but could not find the appropriate job, and ended up doing work which only required High School diploma. I realized that even with an American College Education, I lacked the competitive edge. So, I went back to school and had to start on a new career from the beginning. I am now almost finished with Medical Certification after 4 years of hard work. And Insha-Allah, will be embarking soon on a successful career, where many of my friends with similar certifications are doing very well now.
Zain May 19, 2012 05:50am
Western societies will put you thru alot of grueling testing, but this is all done to make you stronger and better. True there are some people that loose their mind and start using Drugs and Alcohol as an escape but that is not the correct recourse. If we are true to our religion and use it as a Strength, and never give up on making ourselves better, no matter who you are, or where you live on Earth, you can always succeed. You have to realize your own true strengths and keep a Positive Attitude, that is the key. You can win or loose, depending on your State of Mind. Positive always wins at the end, negative attitude makes you fail instantly in your mind, before you even give an honest try. So always, always remain positive and set a goal and achieve it, no matter how long it takes.
Wadood May 17, 2012 09:43am
@Mirza, not true, most of the people from USA are even want to come to Canada and Canada is a best country in whole world.
Azhar Chaudhry May 17, 2012 09:46am
I don't know which Pakistani families you talked about. I have been to Canada and visited my relatives and friends. Most of them are well off and most of them are in business. It is not right to project only one side of the picture. The truth is that like Sikhs they too are hard working and know how to live and earn descent. I do not agree with the writer at all. He could not cite the right figures and is a unilateral view only. Outside anonymity, new generation has gone far in business keeping the religious and cultural values intact. Pakistanis are very well oriented and many well off Pakistani families have moved recently to Canada to get rid of the teetering economical situation in Pakistan.
sultan May 17, 2012 11:08am
I think you have a very valid point and one that can be addressed with training and better awareness. It is naive to think that immigrants get level playing field anywhere in the world. Immigrants will always face barreiers and difficulties. That said, I think immigrants with soft skills, curiosity, openness to other cultures and the willingness to change even if it is confusing and painful is essential to succeed. The statistics clearly show that white, English speaking immigrants are the most successful. European immigrants are advantaged, partly because of race and culture but also because they havesoft skills that are valued (not better but valued). I agree with Johar. Improve your communication skills, ability to handle cultural ambiguity, interact with different cultures, challenge yourself. Don't look to other communities but look at those pakistanis with similar backgrounds and aske what has given some success and what has contributed to others that have not. The engineer working as a an engineer and the engineer driving a cab.
yassr May 17, 2012 10:46am
being a Pakistani. I totally agree with you Mr. Mandeep :)
Rabia May 18, 2012 09:47am
My Lord, the actual place of any person id in his own country, We should respect and try to understand the importance of our OWN COUNTRY.
Ahmed May 17, 2012 10:51am
If you look at my comment above, apparantly getting lost of thumb-ups, I mentioned "training". Again not reporting income is floutting the rules, looking to avoid and evade taxes. Being honest is not really in our training. Lets face it. WE HAVE NO MORAL HIGH GROUND TO CRITICIZE ZARDARI FOR ALL OUR VOWS. Dont take me wrong, I am actually a PPP-hater (not just Zardari). All I am saying is that Pakistan would itself have been a great place if an overwhelming majority of us and out institutions were honestly doing their respective jobs.
L Ahmad May 17, 2012 10:54am
Apart from many other old fashioned Pakistani habits, please leave your political parties in Pakistan. Your corrupt political masters in Pakistan failed to give you a decent society, nobody needs to know them in Canada.
Tariq May 19, 2012 02:21am
Canada is not inviting pakistanis. If you think pakistanis are below poverty line you go back to pakistan and to become a rich man. Otherwise go to Islamic countries.
Muhammad Ahmed Mufti May 17, 2012 01:44pm
Before moving to US I have lived and worked in Canada for about seven years. My experiance is that there is very wide spread discrimination at jobs and other opportunities. Chinese followed by Indians are dominating the Canadian technology landscape. Chinese interviewer will never ever hire a non Chinese. Indians on the other hand may treat Pakistanis fairly. So it has more to do with networking then qualification. rest is algebra.
Noman Aziz May 17, 2012 12:53pm
Pakistani's are clever and expert in tax avoidance and evasion. They defitely mislead the researcher. My close family is in Canada since 1970’s. I knew how wealthy they are. Opportunities are there, their government is supportive. There is no reason for Pakistani to live below poverty line. Immigrants are far better than anybody in Canada.
A Shah May 17, 2012 12:57pm
Good piece, but why only Canada, do this exercise in any country (except Pakistan) and you will find the same result. Indians are more successful in every country across the world compared to the average Pakistani. In the UK Pakistani's are just above Bangladeshi's in the poverty line. Unfortunately Pakistani's believe more in praying for everything then working towards it.
Bob May 17, 2012 01:07pm
This is a text book article, the reality on the ground is totally different.
Shad May 17, 2012 01:10pm
I wonder why all these people criticizing and moaning about how bad Canada is continue to live there? Yes, there are loads of Pakistani scroungers in Canada. They neither contribute to the country nor are they a part of its rich culture. As in the UK, many live in their ghettos which are factories for churning out the usual intolerance and hatred of the West. Why on earth don't they go back to their "lovely" Pakistan and stay there?
Maroof Alam May 18, 2012 04:47pm
by this way, Punjabis are much poorer than Balochis because Balochis form only 3 % of Pak and Punjabis 50 %. India is poorer than Ethopia and so on and so forth......
psingh May 18, 2012 10:36am
Very true....only a male earning and average 4 children ....has attitude to collect more monthly child allowance by keeping low income by wife not working. Also cash job avoid income tax..e.g Taxi driver, .... Whatever statistics be but they are very well above than average life in Pakistan( as per my pak friends in canada)
Hassan May 17, 2012 01:41pm
Working hard honest with your work and understand your responsibilites and most important believing in Allah is the best way to successful life , doesnt matter what corner of the world you live
shan905 May 17, 2012 03:25pm
I am glad DAWN has brought this issue. In my opinion Canada is the most difficult country in the world for foreigners!!! The more educated the person more difficult to get into proper job market.It's like they love to punish the educated one that "why the hell you came"? Very few people were able to braek the status quo in this country. Majority of the foreigners who are settled seemingly well are those who were able to bring oversees money with them. If one compare this situation with USA..........................foreigners are much better off there!! Bottom line, 1- Don't come to Canada if you are educated (they gonna punish you for that). 2-Don't come to Canada if you can't bring money with you (forget about getting ANY from here).
STH May 17, 2012 03:38pm
Dear Shah. You are a light to emulate. I admire you the way you have lived your life. I am happy that I am like you. I am in Canada for the last 17 years love this count for its openness.
umar May 19, 2012 02:09am
thanks for your valuable suggetions...:)
Manzoor Elahi May 17, 2012 06:18pm
So why is this mixed up? Please enlighten us with you intellectual argument.
M K S May 17, 2012 03:59pm
Not to be critical just for the sake of criticism but just cause you highlighted it in your comments, I think you of all people should have proof read your comments before sending them in. Hint: Comment 4 about spellings.
jawad May 17, 2012 04:00pm
look at us. even God has no mercy for Pakistanis. East to west and then within pakistan, pakistanis are in worse ever situation.
Mubeen Alum May 18, 2012 08:17am
People want to go to go outa state, keeping 1 thing in mind "Bohot sara paisa bunae gae" .. easy is said than done!! lifes tuff out der!
Dr. Rehman May 17, 2012 04:04pm
A close look at this data makes me wonder if the conclusions are correct. The information collected is old. Many businesses (e.g. stores, taxi etc.) under report their income. So, the conclusions are one dimenssional in multidimenssional world of socio-ecnomics. All to say that the determinents of peverty is not soley based on this old information - Therefore, all the nonsense conclusions of poor pakistanis having four or 10 children, welfare etc are wrong and misleading.
M K S May 17, 2012 04:07pm
I won't deny that many in our community do that but so do a significant percentage of individulas from other south asian ethnicities. And
Dr. Rehman May 17, 2012 04:07pm
I fully agree. The analysis is based on old information and does not include many other factors...
maddie May 17, 2012 04:09pm
We're a lazy people?! When was the last time you were even IN Pakistan?! Pakistanis work harder than any other nationality that I know, and I've lived in the Middle East, in Pakistan itself, and now in Canada. The LAST thing we are, is lazy. Pakistan and her citizens have it's problems, but the biggest problem that I can identify is this self hatred that Pakistanis living abroad have. You're not Canadian or American or British, you're Pakistani. Have a little self respect.
Syed May 17, 2012 04:12pm
Canada truly is a tough place specially for new immigrants... Anybody looking to come to Canada should be prepared for a tough day tat would last atleast 2 years (tough means really tough)... Plus you will find no single desi person to support you... You will be on your own and would have to manage yourself unlike other communities that support their people....
maddie May 17, 2012 04:13pm
The situation for doctors here in Canada is RIDICULOUS. As a permanent resident, after you've finished med school in Pakistan, you can wait upto TEN YEARS to get into a residency here. And that too, a family medicine residency. It's pathetic. The Canadian system is WASTING intelligent, hard working doctors and other highly skilled professionals by making it impossible for them to fulfill their own dreams. The better alternative for us then, is either wait ten years to get into a residency that you don't even want to do, or then just pop on over to the States and do Internal Medicine.
fawad May 17, 2012 04:15pm
Beware...correlation does not imply causality.
Dr. Saqib Sadiq May 17, 2012 04:18pm
It is a good analysis and is really an eye opener. When I came to Canada with my family in 2002, I was only carrying cash, enough to last me for probably a year or so. With a Ph.D. in Engineering from University of London (England), I was positive in my approach to look for a respectable job in the engineering sector. In the first 10 months I really struggled doing odd jobs and finally an opportunity arrived within a years time to work at a place which was 150 km north of Mississauga. I would like to make a point here that most of the male earning members do not want to leave their families even if they are offered positions in far flung areas. This was my turning point to gain access to Engineering Sector. The drawback with our people is that they mention too many things in the resume and then fall victim to their own deceitful resumes. I gradually rose to senior positions within a span of 6 years with hard work and dedication. In short, our people lose focus on the appropriate opportunities and they become machines to make both ends meet and never get out of the vicious circle.
BabaSahib May 19, 2012 05:57am
Most folks emigrate for better education for their off-spring, wait 30 years and you'll see the opposite to what you write.
Babajaan May 17, 2012 04:42pm
PRN; Thanks for your feedback. I am not contradicting myself and only referred to avoiding ignorant mullahs or preachers and mosques (not the knowledgeable scholars who understand religion and balance) only who turn you into a renegade against the larger society you live in. They enrage you and turn you into an extremist with narrow and rigid way of thinking. You don't have to believe in Allah (God), my friend as your believe doesn't benefit HIM in any ways; yet HIS graciousness, compassion, and mercy still allows your to flourish and be successful. He is providing you even though you don't believe HE exists. HE is not allowing your efforts go to waste either. We on the other hand recognize HIS power and being and love HIM and believe in HIM more than we believe our own existence. We and are thankful that HE is our Rab and will return to HIM when our time is up! Thanks
Rehman May 17, 2012 06:20pm
i think this is an eye opener to all the Pakistanis who r trying to get the canadian immigration. Guys life in our country is much better then there's.
Samiullah May 17, 2012 04:45pm
They are more fit to frustrate at the hands of Canadians. Who drew them there? People who divorce their lands always face the same. The strive for standard, luxury and style and in search they loss their ego and national pride. In 5 to 10 years, they virtually become the enemies of their own land. They facilitate their development which results in our own degradation and humiliation at the hands of the foreigners.
Iqbal Hadi Zaidi May 19, 2012 05:30am
I will quote about a person who has quite high qualifications in finance from USA and UK and works as manager in Canada and holds its passport but perhaps (I wish I am wrong) he is under paid as hinted in the article. Luckily a few years back we both were together in Karachi with our families. He was staying in a house with fan facility whereas I stayed at Beach Luxury Hotel. We were chauffer driven on 24 hours basis but he did not use call taxi and instead stood on roads looking for taxi. I have seen photos of his house in Canada where he served food in disposable paper dishes which negates him. However, he claimed that he has lot of money and I have no reasons to dispute his claim. Perhaps deprivation of money during his childhood has awed him and despite enjoying big purse he still poses to be money stricken but this is bringing bad name for Pakistan which must be avoided. Iqbal Hadi Zaidi / Kuwait
Montreal May 17, 2012 04:46pm
I'm from Montreal and I don't think any other province in Canada as Quebec can be a better place for Pakistanis.These guys over here act all big they live in low income houses.Where everyone is either on welfare or working cash jobs.They dress like there all that and they buy really used modified or luxury cars.They don't have a clue about deodorant or wearing cologne/perfume whether its the men or women.They post pictures on facebook or other sites where they show that there holding money,they have a used luxury car,wearing tons of jewelry and nice clothes.The majority of people are uneducated backward people who have never seen money.We have guys here they say im a chaudhry,im a jutt, im a this or that.What are they doing for a living? Washing dishes,truck drivers,taxi drivers etc.You maybe from a high caste or claim to be a member of a high caste.Our religions teaches us just like all religions that we are all equal regardless of wealth,colour or status.
Montreal May 17, 2012 04:46pm
Nobody cares what your caste is here.They live worse than animals here and back home look at my house,look at my land,I have this many servants.What kind of life is that where you live worse than animals just so you can have something back home that maybe you go to once or twice a year.The thing that bothers me they like to talk behind people back and judge people how they dress or act when they should look at themselves before judging others.If you got something to say you say it front of there face but they dont have the guts.
Ahmed Nizami May 17, 2012 04:49pm
absolutely wrong. not more than 200/child.. and no dental.... and amount per child goes down as income increases plus only upto age of 5 or 6...
Ahmed Nizami May 17, 2012 04:51pm
a person is known by the company he keeps. You hang out n the wrong crowd lol
Ahmed Nizami May 17, 2012 04:55pm
all statistical data and then mixing it with opinion and qualitative analysis should be taken wth a grain of salt. The picture is not bad. Just come out to live in cities like Mississauga, Richmondhill, Markam, Oakville, Milton and on and on... ull find Pakistani's in workforce doing very well...
mohsin May 17, 2012 04:55pm
Dear Babajaan, I salute for you very insightfullness advice u offer to all human beings-specially to Pakistani's. My parents came to this country long to ago and they always emphsised to work hard and play smat-meaning investment wise. Alhumdillah, we have been doing well and I specially try to help much my fellow citizens-specially coming from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. In all honesty as you mentioned in your peace-it's all depends on you what you want to do with your life. Be positive think positive and never give up hope with creator then and only u will succeed in life-that;s my sincere believe is in life. Again, good peace. thanks. Mohsin
Jitonet May 17, 2012 05:02pm
The problem is that they are Pakistanis. Doesn't matter whether they are in Pakistan, USA or UK. They don't behave, they don't work and they are dishonest to themselves. Ofcourse there are exceptions and a percentage which are very good gentlemen & ladies but the generic Pakistani is a creature of insecure self-loathing manifesting as other complexes. Culturally the have only been divided from India for 60 odd years yet the within this short period they have managed to lose all semblance of moral integrity!! Solution is to make the Pakistani kids in Pakistan read true history, educate them to treat religion as just a religion and humanity as primary force in life. The only place Pakistani's behave is in Saudi Arabia where they live mortal fear of severe punishment if they misbehave.
Raymond Durrani May 17, 2012 05:10pm
If Pakistan is such a beautiful country - what are you doing in here, my friend?
ratee May 17, 2012 05:13pm
Pakistani are mostly new immigrants to Canada as compared to Indians who have been living here for many many years so these comparisons are odious. In time Pakistanis will get ahead of other communities so whatever said here is co-incidental. On the other hand the barriers for immigrants in Canada are tremendous which even the Canadian Government agrees to the problems. The other thing is that Pakistanis who have come here are the most educated lot and any language problem or cultural problem like narrow mindedness or religious short sightedness is not significant as highlighted by some people in their letters.
Fayyaz May 17, 2012 05:13pm
valid point...
HM, Canada May 17, 2012 05:23pm
We live in Canada and wish to say that, some of these statistics are flawed. For example most immigrants in Vancouver are from China. Go to some parts of Vancouver and visit Vancouver schools, most of the immigrants are Chinese. Some time we gather statistics in some schools here in Vancouver and found that more then 50% of the students are Chinese, then comes the locals and other immigrants. Chinese are not the lowest paid as said in the statistics. Chinese are buying some of the most costly real estate here in Vancouver. If they don't declare income that's another story. How many Chinese are unemployed... very few as compared to others. It is sad to note that Pakistanis are the most sufferers.... after 2001 the tide has turned against them although they are better qualified.
Huzi May 17, 2012 05:24pm
I think it’s little biased, but some points I totally agree with just men working and mullas beliefs/talks which we bring from there. Pakistanis do think of themselves more (some are artificial) and primary reason for that is the mogul-culture we bring here. I think the older generation did not assimilate well into the Canadian society, but I wouldn’t agree with newer generation. Regarding the welfare system, I am not too sure if it’s just Pakistanis doing it. I am quite sure Chinese/HK-Canadian get their citizenship, never contribute towards taxes, get all expensive medical treatments when they visit Canada, claim post 65 age pension and live happily after back in China/HK or Far East. So it’s just not Pakistanis. Plus I don’t think Pakistani immigrants can outnumber people from China/ HK or Far East. Regarding the taxes, we all hire accountants to save as much as we can. Corporate fraternity does it, so it’s not an individual thing Also the situation of doctors is the same, immigrants coming from countries like India, SL and Bangladesh, just not Pakistanis. Education again I don’t agree is totally dismal. Our schooling is one of the best in the world and international students do a lot better than their counterparts. For higher education we can’t compete/compare with India, but generally people who want to do better, do make better lives in Canada. Atleast our generation and the people I know are doing very well. Many Pakistanis I know at executive positions at big global companies. I haven’t been very long in Canada, but places I have been in North America, I only saw homeless of white colour skin. Lastly, I think the figures and numbers are from 2005.
rizwan khan May 19, 2012 05:05am
I would like to congratulate Mr. Murtaza Haider and Dawn for such a great article.
shafii May 17, 2012 05:25pm
These doctors from Pakistan did not receive education to the standards of western universities. That is why they struggle to pass the western examinations. Some of these doctors can not even communicate in proper English.
Shafi May 17, 2012 05:34pm
Typical Pakistani mentalities.
hassan rana May 17, 2012 05:37pm
so true, i'm pakistani and agree with you 100% on this.
Shafi May 17, 2012 05:39pm
"pigment of imagination" What a phrase!
A.waheed May 17, 2012 05:47pm
I live in Canada more then 40 years has no Champlain if we work honestly and fairly Canada is best Country in the world ,Pakistan and Canada Zindabad
Ajay Chaudhry May 17, 2012 05:48pm
I agree with Raika45 that most of the Pakistanis migrate only physically while their mental framework remains unchanged.
Jay May 17, 2012 06:20pm
this is the problem; u guys drag Allah and Islam in everything which is not letting u to grow or instead u could have used the word "God" but your mindset is not liberal.
Margareta St. Louis May 17, 2012 06:21pm
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this article and all the posted comments. Of course being an immigrant to Canada can be difficult!! Immigrants have been coming to Canada since the 1600s. If you think it isn't easy now can you imagine what it was like 300-400 years ago clearing out the land, cutting down trees, building farms and towns? Working extremely hard and then practically freezing to death six months of the year? Waves of immigrants have populated this beautiful country; French, English, Irish, Scandinavians, Ukrainians, Poles, Italians (the beautiful Italians!), Greeks,Portuguese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Armenians, Lebanese, North Africans, Central Africans, South Africans, Central Americans, South Americans, Philippinos, Indians and yes...Pakistanis! Every nationality, ethnic group, religious group has a place here and can succeed. When you come to Canada, bring your dreams and your integrity. Leave behind your fear, your hatred and your closed mind (especially your closed mind!) Be it 1612 or 2012 the qualities needed to succeed are the same: integrity, honesty, acceptance, strong work ethics. Sometimes things are a bit easier, sometimes a bit harder and sometimes much harder. What's that saying? ''What doesn't kill you makes you stronger''? It doesn't matter what your job is; Taxi drivers are good! Engineers are good! Laborers are good! Stay at home moms are good! Being at the bottom of the ladder income-wise? Being at the top? These things are not important. An open mind and strong work ethics are important. And please, please, let your children grow up and thrive in Canada. Sending the girls back to Pakistan does not ''protect their values'' it only changes the valuation, as in a piece of merchandise...which the girls are not.
Manzoor Elahi May 17, 2012 05:51pm
You'll be surprised my friend.. the Sikhs own quite a few corporates, and they difference is that they've kept away from the limelight. This is true in America as well. They shun the fake publicity because it's all very short lived.
Pakistani Canadian May 19, 2012 01:13am
I would agree that Pakistani or other south asian/ middle eastern immigrants struggle in Canada. As a Pakistani that immigrated to Canada at age of 18 and went to university to complete my engineering education I found it very hard to get a job in Canada. Most professional jobs are hogged by the old boy network run why established canadians. After getting frusted with employment prospects there, decided to pursue my professional life as an engineer in USA. What an amazing difference, fairness, equal opportunity to succeed professionally no matter the color or religion, and I have excelled while also attaining my masters degree and working in major automotive companies like Chrysler, Mercedes, Tesla Motors, and now aerospace.
Manzoor Elahi May 17, 2012 05:52pm
This is very true. The Sikh success and spirit is legendary in North America (not just Canada but the US as well). They're big hearted people and it shows!
SRK May 17, 2012 06:08pm
Lets also discuss the factors that forces us to leave our beloved country Pakistan and move to far away places either with our family or wihout. If we have peace and job opportunities without any safarish in our home country we will not have reason to leave. I am sure one day we will have peace and job opportunities and we will not have to worry about leaving our beloved Pakistan. !!! May God Bless Pakistan and its great men and women. !!!
Pathanoo May 18, 2012 04:20pm
Omar, Hats off to you for being brave and honest to tell the truth.
Muzzaffar Khan May 18, 2012 03:32pm
Mr Pathanooo please read carefully.. the article is based on true facts .. containing CENSUS data... article is discussing majority of people not wanted to listen some perosns personal story.. no one is complaining about the Canada its just some facts .. YES Canada is a great place I live in Canada .. just for a minute read the article carefully what the author is pointing towards
immigrant May 18, 2012 11:45am
Excellent article and comments! these facts are ironic but so true.We Pakistanis have to work on our attitudes.Being empowerd ,mingling with canadians and blending in their culture doesen't mean leaving one's own morals and ideals...we have to come out of these shakles and start respecting humanity rather than a particular religion or race.We have to stop complaining and quit cribbing about the so called conspiracy theories.....and be proactive and honest... There is no shortcut to success.Talking of doctors,its just not only the pakistanis who have to endure the hardships,all the Asian doctors have to go through the same ordeal. Reading this article was kind of demotivating for us who plan to make the BIG MOVE ....But I would take it as an eye opener and all the valuable comments as a guide. :) ...All immigrants should do a thorrough homework and self councelling before planning any movement.
Bilal Hasan May 17, 2012 06:36pm
Probably the one of the best analysis, about Pakistani abroad, I have seen in the newspapers. It has been for years that highly skilled Pakistanis are moving to Middle East and United States, and this analysis didn't come as surprise (although exact analysis was much awaited). If given a chance, every skilled worker would like to go to land of opportunities. While USA is in sedative recovery, it still offers high hopes for Engineers and Doctors. Also, being a PhD in biology or social sciences doesn't cut any more. One should choose fields of technology and healthcare in order to survive in ever-competitive world. Gone are the days of our parents when they could make it by working in one company all their lives with any throw-away degree.
A. Khan May 17, 2012 06:44pm
Not really a good analysis. A lot Pakistanis, and other nationalities I might add, work on cash basis, which means they do not declare their full income on their tax returns. As this data is primarily based on information from Revenue Canada, it does not mean it is accurate. Here is how a lot of Pakistanis work in Canada. Both husband and wife work on smaller jobs where they don't have to report income or under the taxable thresholds anyway. Canadian government gives cash( Yes cash) for each child under a certain age. This is means tested to your income. So if you have less income, you get more cash per child. A lot of Pakistani families live in cheap accommodation i.e. basements being cheaper than apartment , condo or house (in that order). Plus usually basement rent includes all utilities and taxes. As the basement owner is not declaring this income, he is not paying tax on it. He uses this to pay off his mortgage but I am digressing. The original husband and wife also have multiple jobs. So let me give you some numbers : lets say both husband and wife make about c$2000 per month (cash - non taxable, I am erring on low side ) from their jobs. Add the child tax credit on top which can easily double this amount or even more, depending on number of children. Keep no car, use public transit and one can save easily after rent and other expenses (food, clothing (not that they spend much on that) etc.) These people have a net saving of more than C$2000 per month as a conservative estimate. They work hard, but they save a lot also. Government statistics continue to show them as below acceptable income as that is what they declare. Mind you, in my calculation, I have not added income support which would boost the figure even higher. So, in countries where is a social security system, us Pakistanis figure out very quickly how to game the system. This happened over 30-40 years ago in UK and now it is happening here, in Canada. Kudos to Canada and its government and its immigration system, that they did not discriminate against anyone when it came to allowing in immigrants. If anyone is to blame for their changing policies, it is none other than our Pakistani brethren.
Wasim May 18, 2012 09:05am
my suggestion to people of my age or less. I am 25, engineer. you guys be skilled, hard skills and soft skills. come here. do the very best in whatever job, excel, be honest. then you come to age of 30(avg age to get married in Pakistani culture). if you are not adaptive to the social fabric move back, if you are give an other 10 years. and yes marry a strong and high skilled doctor :)
A. Khan May 19, 2012 01:44am
I admit that perhaps I am not fully qualified to comment. But why cannot these immigrant doctors try to work in remote places as opposed to big cities where competition for residency jobs is certainly higher ? And agreed, preference will be given to local graduates. And why not move to USA where comparatively doctors have an easier route ?
Margareta St. Louis May 17, 2012 06:54pm
Just FYI, Statistics Canada does not get it's information from Revenue Canada but from the citizens themselves, through the Census that takes place every 5 years.
avrom May 19, 2012 01:36am
very well said. i am a pakistani and i acknowledge your observation perfectly fits a typical pakistani immigrants in more than 95% cases.Unfortunate truth
Huzefa May 17, 2012 07:07pm
I think the article is little biased, but some points I totally agree with just men working and mullas beliefs/talks which we bring from there. Pakistanis do think of themselves more (some are artificial) and primary reason for that is the mogul-culture we bring here. I think the older generation did not assimilate well into the Canadian society, but I wouldn’t agree with newer generation. Regarding the welfare system, I am not too sure if it’s just Pakistanis doing it. I am quite sure Chinese/HK-Canadian get their citizenship, never contribute towards taxes, get all expensive medical treatments when they visit Canada, claim post 65 age pension and live happily after back in China/HK or Far East. So it’s just not Pakistanis. Plus I don’t think Pakistani immigrants can outnumber people from China/ HK or Far East. Regarding the taxes, we all hire accountants to save as much as we can. Corporate fraternity does it, so it’s not an individual thing Also the situation of doctors is the same, immigrants coming from countries like India, SL and Bangladesh, just not Pakistanis. Education again I don’t agree is totally dismal. Our schooling is one of the best in the world and international students do a lot better than their counterparts. For higher education we can’t compete/compare with India, but generally people who want to do better, do make better lives in Canada. Atleast our generation and the people I know are doing very well. Many Pakistanis I know at executive positions at big global companies. I haven’t been very long in Canada, but places I have been in North America, I only saw homeless of white colour skin. Lastly, I think the figures and numbers are from 2005.
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 12:40pm
MDs have what is referred to by labor law as "a closed shop". They want to keep numbers low so they make more money. Supply and demand. However, among surgeons Pakistanis would be not familiar with all our medical equipment and procedures unless trained here. Would you like to be on the operating table with an anesthesiologist attending who doesn't know how to operate the equipment? The anticipated result would not be pretty. This is not discriminatory. All foreign doctors must be re-accredited in North America regardless of what country he or she is from. In 2012 immigrants to Canada and America know this before hand.
Murtaza May 17, 2012 07:15pm
So, what will they be in Pakistan, where the literacy rate is the lowest in Asia.
ali May 17, 2012 07:17pm
Mandeep is right but it goes for Indians and Sri Lankans and Bangladeshis and Somalians etc in fact for all first generation immigrants from Asia and Africa.
kamal May 18, 2012 02:34pm
He is not complaining just simply stating factual situation
Shabaz May 17, 2012 07:49pm
and I think you have a problem with spellings ;) Thank you for criticizing others while you still lack simple spelling skills ;)
Haider May 18, 2012 03:44pm
well mine will be an exceptional case, because i have the same "mentality" from back home in Pakistan, have a large family as per canadian standards (4 boys) and a non working wife (who does speak english by the way). But i have been relatively well off, have lots of canadian friends and i socialize with them etc etc. I tend to agree with the comments about short cuts and always trying to find a way to cheat the system somehow, just listen to any Urdu / Hindi program on Radio, or read any urdu or hindi newspaper and you will see pages full of ads that promise to get you off the hook and help to get lots of money even if you are at fault in a road accident, they promise to wipe off your entire debts for a little fee, offer to help claim hundreds of thousands of dollar if you "slip and fall" - just a few examples So the message to the community is "Go out and drive like mad men, take out huge loans from the banks and never worry about paying them back, etc." This attitude has to change!
Hayat May 19, 2012 06:06am
My profession is credit management and risk management of corporate credit portfolio. I want to work in same profession or do research (PhD). As a Canadian- Pakistani immigrant, please advice what are my prospects in Canada as this article is narrating a bleak picture of Pakistani skill workers immigrant.
Babajaan May 17, 2012 08:04pm
Excellent Post!!!
Albertan May 17, 2012 08:15pm
Well perhaps Alberta is an exception and rightfully so. Pakistanis seem to do a LOT better than other communities.
Dr. Saqib Sadiq May 18, 2012 03:11pm
Well, I agree to some extent. However, there have been instances where quite a few Pakistani doctors have been successful. In my opnion, Canada is good for such doctors who come to this country at an early age and clear the exams quickly and stand a good chance to get residency. Doctors who are older and have crossed 50 see no opportunity mainly due to the age factor and I know some of them who are still waiting to get a place. As one person commented that doctors should start preparing for such exams when their immigration is in process in their home country. That way they can save lot of time.
S Ahuluwalia May 19, 2012 12:27am
Mostly Pakistani try to treat their wife or kid same way as they accustom in Pakistan. When their wife or kid find out the freedom they enjoy in US or Canada they rebel. First thing in US they teach the children how to or when to call 911. So please when you migrate to US or Canada then leave you fake manhood back at home & start learning their way. I am in US from last 28 year. Work in IT sector in management position for very good time of it & now own a small company in mid south. Lot of my Pakistani friend don't say to other that they are from Pakistan instead they claim to be from India just to avoid the look or stare by individual. You guys need to work on your shortcoming. Keep your religion within yourself. Don't try to preach other people that how beautiful or peaceful it is, as media in US or Canada contradict it with visual. Nobody will ask you what your religion or beliefs are until unless you start it.
zohaib May 18, 2012 12:18pm
Figure might be true but reality is different...I am in Middle East for last 5+ yrs In foreign countries jobs market is based on nationalities and references, social-networking is also biased eating, drinking and clubbing. First thing we need to learn as Pakistani that we are PAKISTANI not US, UK or any other born citizen. I have seen N number of Pakistani offices and Restaurants where u will find Bangali, Malbari and Philipinoos except 1 or 2 Pakistanis so how can Pakistani move up from poverty line??? Who will give a new Pakistani migrant Job? In u will find job specifically for Indian and philipinoos only apply. HR or Head of Company u will again find Indian who will 99% biased from you. We need to change ur thinkin to change things its simple
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 12:04pm
One must make sacrifices to reach the top. Executives are expected to do more than the next man. Sometimes travel or relocation shows loyalty to the corporation, and usually loyalty is rewarded. We must do important things and not simply try to look important.
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 12:24pm
The Greek philosopher Socrates had not see the city of Athens in 25 years. His students decided to take him on a tour of the capital. On returning Socrates was asked what he now thought of Athens. He replied, "I never realized there were so many things in the world I don't want."
Ali May 17, 2012 08:44pm
I agree that Canada is a very very great place to live and excel in life. I also agree that most Pakistani families don't get use to the life and it's pace. My father came to Canada with only $300 dollars and by the grace of God and his hard work he is extremely well off, running his own business, owns propertys and gave post secondary educations to all kids to be exact 5 kids. Most people these days when they come to Canada first thing they look for is Social Services and start driving Taxi even though they know it's wrong and that they could do much better than that. All I'm saying is that opportunities are endless and parent's must set examples for their children. My father is CA and I'm going to acquire my deisgnation in 3 years once my work term is completed. So, Pakistani are not all taxi drivers or social services junkies there are those that dream big and know how to achieve them. It has nothing to do with religion, sex, race. Canada is an extremely great place and I'm proud to call Canada my HOME.
Dr. Saqib Sadiq May 18, 2012 02:59pm
See my comments based on my experience in Canada. So, one cannot take it for granted that every Ph.D. is good for nothing. You have to pave your way to get into the system. Say, if you had migrated from one province to another or one city to another in your home country, I am sure you would have faced similar problems, may be not to that extent. All we need is confidence, dedication, jazba and faith and with sheer hard work this can be achieved instead of whining over it. Please do not take it as personal.
Human May 17, 2012 08:49pm
Who is asking Pakistanis to go and live in Canada then? FYI, The foreign degree is not recognized in US, Canada and any western countries for everyone. Be it India or Paki and Chinese. Indians and others have no problem with it. Only Pakis have. And there are reasons behind that, its very easy to get a fake degree in Pakistan.
Raj Shreshta May 17, 2012 08:51pm
The problem is that even a Double PHD from India or Pakistan is equal to Toilet Paper in Canada. No recognition at all. That is why Indians and Pakistans are working as Pizza Delivery, Taxi and other small Jobs. Unless this requirement for Board Certification changes in all Professions , it is better to stay in our countries. Life is really really tough in Canada. I realized only after I came here.
snowmantech May 18, 2012 03:29pm the same time many pakistanies are making above $100,000/y in GTA area. I do see pakistanies on good positions in banking, engineering and especially IT. BLAME habit is one of reason that many pakistanies have a lot.
T. Awaisi May 17, 2012 09:37pm
Part 1 It is a very interesting blog. Through these lines I would like to summarize the main reason behind those highly educated work force that are forced to drive cabs, work as security guards or flipping burgers and slapping pizza dough in Toronto. Canada Immigration opened it gates to foreigners in early 90s for a number of reasons. There was a dire need for IT professionals because of the looming year 2000 issue. ii). And because of the population decline and aging baby boomers, it had a growing need to act now and fill the gap for the future labor force. There was a sufficient supply of highly skilled work force that had been working in the Middle East employed during the oil boom era, who were now faced with the issue of providing higher education for their children. Above all, these people had prospered and accumulated large amount of wealth, thanks to their tax free income. This was seen as an ideal opportunity for the Canadian government, so it opened its doors to the new immigrants to lure these people who not only provided the future workforce, also facilitated cash fusion to the ever ailing Canadian economy.
T. Awaisi May 17, 2012 09:38pm
Part 2. The economic boom in mid 90s especially in the housing sector was a result of this influx of immigrants. This was a very well thought off plan by Ottawa at that time and did wonders to the economy. Many families choose Canada as their new home. These were professionals with specialization in IT, Engineering, Medicine, Academics and other disciplines. IT did fairly well in securing good jobs because of the year 2000 issue. However, other disciplines like Engineering and Medicines had little choice but to go for odd jobs because there were few jobs available for them due to protectionism, strict certification requirements and above all a very subtle racial discrimination that exist at workplace. This is despite the fact that, those professionals were given immigration based on their degrees, qualifications and experience.
T. Awaisi May 17, 2012 09:38pm
Part 3. Today, we find them driving cabs, working as security guards and doing other odd jobs. Some tried to start a business, but Toronto being the scam capital of the world, they were scammed and deprived of their lifetime earnings since there is no real protection of any kind offered by the government. Who ever tried to go back to their native country, their children now that they have been Canadianized would not go back leaving no choice for the parents to stay and deal with the situation. Canadian economy is not business friendly, high taxes (HST was another scam that raised taxes on items previously PST exempt), high gas prices, high rents and insurance rates, leaves very little disposable income with the average Canadian to spend and that does not help the business to thrive. The whole episode of relaxing immigration law in mid 90’s was a government sponsored scam that deprived many new immigrants at that, of their hard earned money. These are not only Pakistani Canadians, other nationalities are also suffering.
Caz May 17, 2012 09:39pm
You have identified the core of the problem.
Asif Khan May 17, 2012 09:41pm
Rais Alam do not get personal. I wrote what I think is right. So I leave it there
Amar May 17, 2012 09:46pm
Sitting at home and work great from home is common in canada : this must be reported in income while filing the income tax. Is it ?
Hussain Ali May 17, 2012 10:08pm
Another reason. Canada till recently allowed one to sponsor parents and get immigration. This inflates the numbers as well.
immigrant May 17, 2012 10:25pm
Dear Sirs/Madam: What is the job situation like in Canada these days? Still recession there? Any jobs for engineers? What are the most common jobs? Is it possible to get temporary employment visa instead of skill base immigration. Immigrate or not from Paksitan. Please advice.
notice May 18, 2012 07:07am
Having read the study and a lot of the comments, I concur with many of the things mentioned here. I think the biggest hurdle holding back the Pakistani Canadian community is lack of motivation. Why should you settle for less I ask? No it is not correct for a large majority to work as taxi drivers. You should strive to succeed and aim to reach at a skill level that is not only in demand but desired by the community where you live. We need more doctors, engineers, lawyers, artists, professors, entrepreneurs, politicians e.t.c and fewer taxi drivers and security guards. While some have said that the title does not matter, it does matter in several ways. Your ability to excel in your profession is a measure of how successfully you have integrated into the society and how you're contributing to it. Having a well paying career (and by that I clearly mean more than what ever taxi drivers earn regardless of not disclosing their incomes) or business relieves you of the stress of basic survival and enables you to strive towards empowering a positive change in your community and the society you live in. Financial freedom, achieved via respectable high paying professions and businesses, will allow us to better contribute towards areas where our immigrant community has not contributed in the past: i.e. donating towards improvement of healthcare facilities in Canada, trust funds/ scholarships for university students of Pakistani origin, political contributions, media, human rights and several other areas where the voice is lacking.
G. Rasool May 17, 2012 10:28pm
Dear brother I think your comments are the best & encourging.God bless you. this is the right way to get success.wonderful G. Rasool
Mehreen May 18, 2012 07:11am
I think some comments in the article are noteworthy, but most of them are very confused. I think the identity crisis for Pakistani males results because they are never able to find jobs and social status of the same quality that they had in Pakistan, for example, if you graduate from Pakistan's engineering schools, which are all government funded and therefore very competitive to get into, you end up in the elite job bracket, and in Canada nobody cares about the degree and you're mediocre, and such things go for all professions, for example, i lived in canada with my family for 7 years and eventually we moved back, because my father had a much better job in Pakistan and social standing/ family background etc. he missed and my mother was also from an affluent background she missed where she had roots and i think rather than being a fanatic or religious (because religion is not against freedom) its more the social status and recognition and the prestige of the Pakistani degree in Pakistan, whereas in Canada it is not recognized. As far as Pakistan is concerned as being an extremist country, let me tell you that after coming back from canada i realized that pakistans major problem is the corrupt government where they make absolutely nothing available to the public, so its basically very very unsafe, and other than that in big cities in Pakistan there is no religious fanaticism going on, in fact, you'l find a lot of people wearing western or fashionable clothing and having a happening night life (professionals). The issue is the insecurity and the complete disregard and ignorance of the government of any problem that may have occured.
Aamir May 17, 2012 10:37pm
I agree too
B.J.Z May 17, 2012 10:55pm
I wonder why the author of the piece elected to use data from 2005. Why data from the most recent Survey was not used. The author supposedly is an acadamic, surely he should have known better and used more recent data. Is there a hidden agenda that the writer had.
Bashir May 17, 2012 11:00pm
Excellent. That should be the spirit. Enlightened,clearheadedand objective. It is appreciated.
Azhar Iqbal May 18, 2012 03:05pm
You just hit the nail on the head. Thats the key to success not only in Canada but anywhere in the world. But unfortunately we as Pakistanis lack this attitude. We want shortcuts for everything. We want to become rich overnight without any effort and hardwork. Thats very unfortunate but true. Unless we change our attitude, things are only going get worse for us both in Pakistan and abroad.
CanadianMuslim May 17, 2012 11:35pm
Wrong VSP its the opposite,Pakistani Canadians have the lowest welfare application rate of all ethnic communities in Canada,no.1 infact in native aborigine Canadians followed by white Canadians and then African Canadians. But i agree those few Pakistanis that take welfare exploit it have you ever wondered where they learned the tricks to exploit the system? If you are smart enough you will guess the answers :-)
CanadianMuslims May 17, 2012 11:46pm
One sentence that explains the whole situation.Canada has the highest income tax rate in the western world,waitresses in restaurants and as rich their managers because they under report taxes on their cash tips,same goes for taxi drivers and kiosk venders who incidentally are mostly south Asian Canadians :-)
CanadianMuslim May 17, 2012 11:51pm
Mr.Amir you will get thumbs down because you write correctly. Canada has complex history of exploiting immigrants which most people not living in Canada are not familiar with. If anybody really want the accurate statistics they should check statistics Canada and Canada revenue agency websites for statistics. Many non-Pakistani posters will be surprised how many Pakistani Canadians own houses,cars,businesses and are NOT homeless,drug addicts or in prisons.
CanadianMuslim May 18, 2012 12:00am
A study conducted by the American Community Survey in 2005, showed the mean and median incomes for average Pakistani male full time workers were US$59,310 and US$42,718 .Pakistani is also 4th largest source for foreign trained doctors for America according to American medical association. Pakistani americans So According to 2006 pew research pakistani americans have above average national rate of eduation with over 60% adultsholding a bachelors degree or higher professional course. Mr.Mirza is correct,america is wayyyyyyyy beter canada for Pakistanis
Khan May 18, 2012 12:03am
True analysis, this is what exactly happening in Canadian system. They beat the system on their own terms
CanadianMuslim May 18, 2012 12:09am
First of all its Revenue Canada that tracks income for Canadians not Statistics Canada, and secondly you are mixing salaried income with wealth,two totally different things. A family doctors earns roughtly $150000 in canada out of which $45000 gets cut in income tax,not to mention gst/hst,EI,Liability Insurance. Compared that a person making $20000 a years which get over 15000-20000 tax free government funds and grants and you will smart enough to realize that there is more then one way to gather wealth(not salary) in Canada. And the funny thing is that it is all legal ;-)
Aamir May 18, 2012 12:28am
I live in Canada and I think that sikhs are also a very hated community here,they probably are amongst the lowest educated,even the canadian born and yes only get by because both husband and wife work.Another reason they are not liked by white community is all the lies and tricks they play to get into Canada,MP and MPP is no success guage ,merely indicates how tight knit the community is.
Khan May 18, 2012 12:39am
Ground realities are much different than this article
Zaki Haider May 18, 2012 07:20am
Have seen million of comments but WHY should I believe this survey if it has numbers of 2005-06? Things have changed drastically over the last few years!!!
ali May 19, 2012 04:17am
Thousands of Indians along with Pakistanis Bangladeshis Sri Lankans, westIndies, Somalis and Afghanis and people of even Russia and Eastern Europe are working at minimum wage jobs across Canada and many are on social welfare., anybody cane be on welfare even white Canadians across PEI, NFLD and Sask are on welfare Native Canadians are on welfare.Poverty as per Canadian standards is not restricted to Pakistanis only.There is no official survey made by the government of Canada which says that Indians have done better then the Pakistanis, personal opinion is something else.Immigrants from Pakistan and India etc are mostly involved in the same profession and are considered as South Asians.The Indians are more visible then the other South Asians across Canada because they are many times the number of Pakistanis, Sri Lankans and Bangladeshis put together,Many Immigrated to BC more then 100 years ago, and all immigrants are in Canada because of economic problems back home. That is why we do not see any Saudis or Bahraini here and even Japanese or Singaporeans or even Thais are few in numbers.
bnath May 18, 2012 01:39am
Don't you see some contradiction in your own words? You are saying 'no need to assimilate and adopt any alien culture and values' and in the next breath you say 'bring and maintain the good values you learnt abroad'.
Cheema May 18, 2012 01:48am
I grew up in Canada. Left Pakistan after doing matriculation form F G Public school. I reside in USA and am VP of engineering in a high tech company. I lived for more than ten years in Canada and have been living in US for the last 15. US is a bigger economy, less taxes with more opportunities. I feel a very strong bond with Canada as i did all my education there. I have never been discriminated against because of my color or religion even once. So anyone who says otherwise is either lying or lazy. Canada is one of the best place to live and raise a family with an honest day's work. Tell me, can you do that in Pakistan, where hypocrisy is a social norm. Don't believe me, just look at the ruling elite and work downwards.
bnath May 18, 2012 01:48am
It appears that you support tax evasion which is illegal in case you didn't know.
Cheema May 18, 2012 04:16am
I grew up in Canada. Left Pakistan after doing matriculation form F G Public school. I reside in USA and am VP of engineering in a high tech company. I lived for more than ten years in Canada and have been living in US for the last 15. US is a bigger economy, less taxes with more opportunities. I feel a very strong bond with Canada as i did all my education there. I have NOT been discriminated against because of my color or religion even once. So anyone who says otherwise is either lying or lazy.
Varun Sharma May 18, 2012 02:29am
I have been in Canada for several years and have been associated with banking industry for all that long. I can tell for sure that along with Sikhs, Pakistanis are perhaps among the richest communities in Canada. Perhaps they have learnt the best survival skills back home and have developed the smartness to identify loopholes in a system and to be better able to use those loopholes in their advantage. A significant drop in immigration for Pakistanis is not really for the reasons listed in this article. In fact for Christian Conservatives (who are in power now a days), it makes more sense to import Christian brethren from Philippines rather than importing hostile muslims from Pakistan.
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 01:10pm
A Love-Hate relationship with your country is not a bad thing. It shows one cares a lot about it. This would be a perfect world if there were no people in it.
Azhar Iqbal May 18, 2012 02:54pm
I agree with you Kanwal. People don't do their homework before migrating. They just think that life will be all roses once they land in a foreign country. They don't plan about their careers and don't think about the cultural differences. As a result, most of them end up in trouble. They manage to survive financially even earning lowest wages but really suffer on cultural and religious fronts. There is a price for everything in life but most of them want everything for free.
Kam May 18, 2012 02:58am
Hi All, I have been in living in Australia since last 15 years, before coming here i was based in Canada. Believe it or not Canada is really a 'Tough' place for any one regardless of their origin/nationality. Cost of living in Canda is just crazy and income is no where near where it should be, therfore there is a great imbalance between income and expenditure. There are many parts of the world where a single income is more than enough to cover all living expenses and to have little bit saved in the end. If you really want to be there then you need to well prepare yourself against so many things. Do your research have a plan of action and stick to the plan. In a competitive environment you need to be on topof everything if you really want to be successfull. Good Luck, have faith in Allah, and work hard.
Ashfaque May 18, 2012 07:33am
"There are two kinds of failures: those who thought and never did, and those who did and never thought."
Pakistani Canadian May 19, 2012 01:03am
I would agree that Pakistani or other south asian/ middle eastern immigrants struggle in Canada. As a Pakistani that immigrated to Canada at age of 18 and went to university to complete my engineering education I found it very hard to get a job in Canada. Most professional jobs are hogged by the old boy network run why established caucasian canadians. After getting frusted with employment prospects there, decided to pursue my professional life as an engineer in USA. What an amazing difference, fairness, equal opportunity to succeed professionally no matter the color or religion, and I have excelled while also attaining my masters degree and working in major automotive companies like Chrysler, Mercedes, Tesla Motors, and now aerospace. My advice to Pakistani bothers and sisters, do not waste you time or money with Canada pursue your future in better countries or best make your homeland situation work that is best if possible. My experience in Canada is similar to lot of minorities from asia, middle east and africa. May Allah guide us to make best decisions for our family and ummah.
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 02:29pm
"My admiration for the West is not at the expense of others; rather, it is an invitation to those others to acknowledge their illusions and go beyond their inferiority and liberate themselves from backwardness. [Those others] should admit their shortcomings, and make an effort to overcome them; they should stop denying the truth and closing their eyes to the multitude of wonderful achievements. They should be fair towards those nations that achieved prosperity for themselves but did not monopolize it for themselves and instead allowed the whole world to share the results of this progress, so that other nations of the whole world now enjoy these achievements. Furthermore, Western civilization has given to the world knowledge and skills which made it possible for them, the non-Western nations, to compete with it in production and share markets with it. Criticizing one's own deficiencies is a precondition to inducing oneself to change for the better. Conversely, to glorify one's backward apathetic self is to establish and fortify backwardness, to strengthen the shackles of apathy, and to eradicate the capabilities of excellence." Ibrahim al-Buleihi (Saudi Sura Council Memeber)
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 11:05am
The only ones who will be "socialized" in Canada will be the children of immigrants. "Education" is 50% socialization and 50% education. The parents will never go through that process! There is a proverb in French: Wherever God has planted you is where you must bloom.
Sarmad Qureshi May 18, 2012 03:51am
The data being 7 years old is too obsolete to creat a report on. The writer being a Phd shoudl realise that and not create unnecessary hype about things. Look at what the current situation is, what the current numbers say. Things MAY have improves for us Pakistanis there in Canada or they may have not, but my point remains that using 2005/6 statistics in 2012 is no way reflecting a true, current picture.
Angel Mirza May 18, 2012 03:55am
My husband is a Pakistani national and he hates to see his fellow countrymen begging instead of working and they expect the government to feed them. Canada isnt alone. This is the same situation in England where alot of Pakistanis/Indians would rather stay at home and get social security benefits! Where is their self respect? I am a foreigner as well working in USA but as a UK citizen I never beg from my own government. My family in Canada got the same feedback that Pakistanis/Indians are breeding more children so they get more money out from the government without contributing anything. BEGGING is HARAM but laziness rule. It's pathetic situation. I dont blame the Canadian and UK government restricting the entry of Pakistanis in their country. The citizens of these countries are just fed up of putting food in their mouths and free roof over their head.
Mansoor Ali May 18, 2012 04:01am
I agree on the points raised in the article, we cannot deny the ground reality.... also some of the points raised by our sister community here in Canada also true...... I am a Pakistani and live in Canada since last 10 years...... I think as a nation we should accept our weaknesses, we are a divided nation on the basis of religion, caste or ethnicity......whether in our home country or in Canada/USA or Europe. We never allowed our females to come out of our houses and help the family to grow!!! always bring out dated belief and tradition in our way of life...... the other problem here is that we do not take care of our kids and monitor the growth of our kids..... because the male leader at home work 12 hour shift so no connection with kids in terms of their education development and at the same time do not allow females of house to work and help the family .......
Mansoor Ali - Canada May 18, 2012 04:03am
education is not our priority ............ like in Pakistan we destroy school (special girls school) on the name of religion so that our daughters and sister do not get the good education..... also we are corrupt nation always look for short cuts how can we become millionaire in one night....... I know so many Sikhs, Hindu, Afghanis, Sri Lankan Tamils etc they are in different field working hard and their female family members also help them in their business, I want to share with you that a guy (Sikh) came to my home to install satellite dish network, to my surprise I saw that he came with his wife and she was helping him in installation..... can you imagine a husband and wife are working together in this kind of field this is call true life partnership where husband and wife are equal and treat each other with respect....... where as we treat our wife, daughter that they only belongs to home nothing else...... so how can one person take the burden of a family of 5 persons ..... it's very hard here things are not easy........
Mano May 18, 2012 04:07am
The best comment ever! I did exactly what you have talked about in your post and I have been successful by the grace of Allah!. Education is the key to success and having a good attitude towards others in a foreign country is a big plus.
Muzaffar Khan May 18, 2012 03:41pm
I am also waiting for some enlightment ..aahaaa
eKPardesi May 18, 2012 03:57pm
Good article! and very constructive feedback!!! Now the trick is how positively we learn from all this and progress forward and lead the WORLD.
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 02:20pm
"There is no problem so big or so complicated that it can't be run away from." CHARLIE BROWN
Angel Mirza May 18, 2012 04:33am
So Dr. Rehman you are implying that most Pakistanis are cheaters because they under declare their income to get more benefit from the government! You just gave the IRS a tip of where to look for cheaters and tax evaders so they can be taxed properly. First stop will be the Pakistani colony. Pathetic!
Aamir May 18, 2012 01:18pm
Ahhhh Canada .....its not quite America :-)))) and i doubt it ever will be :-))))
Uncleakbar May 18, 2012 04:39am
Could you kindly enlighten us as to what difference it would have made if farrukh had chosen to use the word "God" instead? You do know that the Allah Muslims refer to is their God.
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 02:22pm
adnan May 18, 2012 04:48am
dear u mention toronto n ontario , are these two cities expensive , if so then where they should live .. because i was just reading comment of one writer that Pakistani should live in good and big area to adopt cultural differences .. i am seeking migration to canada, so ur valuable comments would definetly help me thanks
AHA May 18, 2012 12:52pm
Thank you. I wish I could have given you 100 thumbs up.
concerned May 18, 2012 05:32am
I totally agree with all your points. As a young pakistani, I came to the US for my engineering degree ( I had become frustrated with my education from Pakistan). Nevertheless, I finished my degree and am currently working for the past 5 years as a consultant. Life is tough as I'm still not an immigrant (on a work visa) but the whole system in the US is as fair as it can be. If a person is serious and dedicated about his/her life, this country will give you hundreds of opportunities. Once again, thank you for all the very nice and important points.
Programmingdrone May 18, 2012 04:03pm
The Sikhs migrated to Canada originally in the early 1900's and started farming there. This generation of Sikhs in Canada is the third or fourth generation and they have been very well established for the last 100 years. Many Sikhs also migrated after the 1984 genocide of the Sikhs in India. Compared to that, Pakistanis are relatively new in Canada. Also, Canada has fewer jobs than America. The criminal statistics are also true about the Sikh community. Members of the Sikh community are most likely to commit violent and drug related crimes specially in BC.
Junaid May 18, 2012 05:33am
Hey man, i am living in Pakistan, now lsten the situation. their is no job in Pakistan. i have done B.E in petroleum and u know, my seniors even dnt get the job , only 5 % got the job and 4% of them are through illegal channels.the situation is almost same with the new engineers. do u think in the current stuation Pakistan is the country to line in? I love Pakistan, But not the people of Pakistan. not the policies of government, we have to be sincere with our work, wether a person is a peon or a MNA.
Talha May 18, 2012 05:34am
I dont think this has anything to do with war on terror, neither with corrupt leadership or governance. When a person is somewhere outside the country, he is himself the ambassador of that country and is answerable and accountable for his own deeds and acts. I think those who left Pakistan for economic and status uplift could not carry themselves well thereby creating a bad impact of themselves in the foreign society. The impression that they have created about themselves cannot be created in ten years, it has to be a lot more than a ten year time period.
Qureshi May 19, 2012 06:18am
Well, in my opinion , the source data is almost 7 years old, it may have represented a picture of past, but not necessarily current situation. I don't get why Mr. Murtaza had to use data that is very old and based his opinion on it.
Junaid May 18, 2012 05:46am
Please tell me what are the chances for fresh engineers in Canada, i have done B.E in petroleum Engineering and now working in a multinational company in Pakistan named SKF since 6 months, now i am trying to do M.Eng from Canada. Ryerson University is also on my list, please guide me. i want to do M>Eng in Mechanical Engineering
saba May 18, 2012 05:46am
Assalamoalaikum, Babajaan: Excellent advice - Being focused, avoid debts, regular in salah/prayers and having confidence in your skill sets (& willing to improve on it). I did my engineering (couldn't get a scholarship but managed to get a teaching/research assistantship); zero debt (Alhamdulillah); stayed in downtown (close to University); have a good mix of friends; wear the hijab (try to be practicing muslimah); got great professional experience (as a student intern during summers); and now working in a well-known organization (recently completed further education - the organization paid for it due to my good performance!!). But - it was not easy. I had to make some hard sacrifices - didn't visit Pakistan every summer vacation or every year (saving money); careful with my phone costs; eating at home; not into parties etc. On a personal note: Everytime there was stress, I would read the Quran with English/Urdu translation (this is my personal experience). Being a woman and from humble, middle-class background, I've managed to do well (Alhamdulillah). I see no reason why others (men/women) can't succeed and achieve the professional opportunities they desire.
Ali Changezi May 18, 2012 05:56am
I totally agree with you, unfortunately all those who could not do well have gone to Canada in search of wealth without changing their habits of Munafaqat, which is the biggest curse of every Pakistani these days. Ali Changezi, Karachi
A.M. Rogers May 18, 2012 05:58am
Yes, Singh is right. Yet, opportunity is the key word. You can drop and rise and rise. I personally went to top 10 percent highest wage earners as engineer in Canada 4-5 years before retirement. But, just close to retirement had business failure and am rising again now. I think opportunity is the key word and no country in the world can compare Canada when you talk of opportunities.
Mustafa May 18, 2012 06:04am
The situation of immigrants of Pakistani origin is more or less the same in EU-countries as in Canada. Their social networks remains confined to their own ethnic groups. They do not mingle with the rest of the society. They end up finding the same sort of low-paid jobs as the rest of their country-men. Women segregation, religious conservatism, also among the educated class and negative stereotypes about Pakistani culture and society in the West, all contribute to their dismal position in the employment market.
Faisal May 19, 2012 03:12am
I think your analysis are flawed. Either Pakistanis are really good at tax evasion or they just work too much on cash. Pakistani Taxi Drivers in Toronto or Pakistani Truck drivers in Montreal/Quebec have a surprisingly high income some earn more than lawyers or doctors. If anyone is struggling than its those who come to Canada thinking their is an office with their golden name plate waiting for them since they graduated from a Pakistani University. Give me a break please, even Canadian degree holders are struggling to find jobs in this tough economy. The labor market is more competitive than ever and cheap labor is pushing down the standard of salaries. So my suggestion to all those who are day dreaming about an 80k office job, get out of the couch and start somewhere at an entry level if you find anything. Otherwise just hop on a truck you will be surprised at the amount of money you can make...
Khalid May 18, 2012 01:24pm
Experience from case to case is different like any other community. I give you and example of a well qualified engineer from Pakistan with further schooling in Canada who finds a job very easily in Middle East but not in Canada due to obvious and many tricky barriers. When there is no excuse still there is one i.e. "you are over qualified". This engineer who left his back home country and cut all his routes with his past background, it's way hard for him to reverse the whole process after spending very big time in Canada is compelled to do security job or taxi for which he is considered as "qualified" but unqualified for his own profession. I know he's suffering but what this country is getting the benefit from his past experience? I know like all others every Pakistani immigrant is equally loyal to Canada and love this country for which that person has decided to spend his entire life with his family. Complaint is not from country, companies or the owner but from "hiring managers" who don't want to see someone with more skills on their heads. Probably, our Indian friends must be knowing that Medical and Engineering professions are way more competitive in Pakistan than any other country. Only cream of the society can enter this profession and this is the ground reality. Rest of the other factors are one sided and in general there is nothing special against Muslims as society in general in educated. This is a big plus point that Canada is not accepting uneducated and unskilled manpower from overseas.
Parinda May 19, 2012 03:04am
Dear Fellows Nice to note some Canadian comments /on Pak Immigrants. Here in Pakistan, every newspaper is full of Ads "alluring " people to go t Canada, collecting huge sums in the name of immigration " Consultation fee ". Pakistan has the weakness of its " Managers ", the Rulers. The flaws in Education System are obvious making us to "Appear Again " in Canada. Let me advise you : FIRM: Do Not Move Untill You Have a Secure Job, according to your level of education. One of my brothers went to canada years ago, brought his Family & kids from Pakistan & has never come back. !!! Parents passed away & Family kids have grown & married but he says He does not AFFORD to come to PK
Cyrus Howell May 18, 2012 10:58am
Harsh words Mohsin, but there is some truth to it. Canada needs laborers not corporate executives. People do not start at the top and work their way down the ladder.
yousuf May 19, 2012 06:48am
the state of immigrants, this article describes is not new and is normal. even in pakistan, people move from less developed areas to urban, face same situation. it happens everywhere and all the time. has happened before, will happen always. I too, as first gen. immigrant did not do well. there are so many barriers to overcome. my childern, not born in canada, were small when we arrived there from middle east, were brought up, got educated and started work in canada. and they are doing well, good jobs, own homes, automobiles, whatever. and they are in early 30s. they are in right direction. i was mainframe IT professional, when started in canada was told i don't have canadian experience. so there is some discrimination. canada is beautiful country, my homeland. honest hardworking, fair people. there is some discrimination. you work hard you succeed. you can rise to any level. you can't do this in your country of origin most of the time even when your are qualified.
yousuf May 19, 2012 06:49am
there is an article on study commissioned by the federal Department of Citizenship and Immigration built a profile of who was behind the wheels of cabs on Canadian streets. 175037166.html the tone is totally different the subject though is not much different. it doesn't put pakistanis under the microscope, rather it ponders for example, "Newcomers' difficulties in the job market are not a reflection of their own lack of education, but of bureaucratic bottlenecks, discrimination, gatekeeping by professions, and language difficulty. Everyone benefits if overqualified immigrant drivers can get out of their cars." i urge to read it too.
Muhammad Faisal May 19, 2012 08:50am
When Canada Giving Immigration to Pakistani Doctors as doctors then why they are not accpeting their education ? they did not ask for immigration as Security Guards................
sadfasfasdf May 19, 2012 09:46am
Christians, Hindus and other minorities are given far better rights in Pakistan then most of the world.
Czar May 19, 2012 10:29am
You can take a Pakistani out of Pakistan but you cannot take Pakistan out of the Pakistani.
zill ellah May 19, 2012 10:50am
subhan allah
aa siddiqui May 19, 2012 10:58am
Why are you guys so allergic to the term Allah and Islam? Yes, if a Muslim makes up fake conspiracy theories, shows a superior attitude towards non-muslims, forcing his/her religoin on others, is impolite etc, then you should condemn that and i will join you in it. Apart from it, it is our right to thank the creator as per our beliefs. Majority of Americans believe in God and would say Thank God... that doesn't make them backward people. Please be tolerant and don't respond to extremism of some Muslims by reverse extremism.
rathore May 19, 2012 11:25am
this data is based on 2005??? its like 7 years old ????? the author is comparing indians with Pakistanis....if i'm not wrong indian sikhs are in canada for years compared to PAKISTANIS who started migrating to canada like few years back, 2ndly the data might be of the time zone when number of pakistani's were new to canada and were establishing themselves....
Jamil Irshad May 20, 2012 03:56pm
Gents... How do you explain..I was an AVP at a major bank in Lahore with an MBA from LUMS and here working as a teller at a major bank in Canada...where goes the utilization of professional skills in Canadian economy. My boss only has a secondary school and a 1 yr diploma in Banking. The system does not easily convert our life long experience into Canadian professional job market and as you may agree with me it's not easy to start from scratch for an over 40 yrs professional.
Rizwan Ahmed May 20, 2012 04:04pm
Bismillaah First of all i would like to mention that making migration to a land of kufr is not permissable in islaam there is consensus on this regard between the ppl of knowledge. the Messenger of Allaah sallaahu alayhi wasalaam mentioned that "I am free from every muslim residing in the land of the kufaar the sahaba asked why and he sallahu alayhi wasalaam replied they should not see each others fire(cooking pot) - so this is not a virtous migration to Canada- the proof is infront of your eyes you see how many families get destroyed how many ppl believe that this secularism is better then islaam (which is kufr) and so on. The solution is to return to your country or a muslim country and aid your Deen and Allaah will Aid you and the Messenger of Allaah mentioned "protect the boundaries that Allaah stipulated( i,e do not transgress) and Allaah will protect you...and Allaah mentioned if you Aid Allaah then surely Allaah will aid you....
eKPardesi May 19, 2012 01:36pm
"Lead the world ! Where ?" In humanity, fairness, jutice, science, innovation ... and the lot.
ali May 19, 2012 01:42pm
Hi Junaid, I would recommend that you to do M.eng in Petroleum engineering from university of Alberta or Calgary. All the manufacturing jobs are moving down south and some to China. Canada is becoming service based economy. Lot of engineers here, from our own universities and cant find work. Lot of automotive plant shut downs in Ontario since recession. They are now changing EI regulation, because they don't have money to support that many ppl. Over here you get ur job on basis of how well company is doing, if they are losing money you would be laid off. Go to industry that can never loose money, like health care, Oil or Power. With degree in Petroleum from Canadian university, you can go to Alberta and look for jobs in Oil companies. Anther option would be to be do nuclear engineering from Mcmaster or UWO. You can get job in OPG, bruce power or AMEC. (PS also, get registered with PEO ( search on web). They have some kind of bridging program for foreign trained engineers, you can call them ask about engineering prospects here) Hope this helps. Regards, Engineering Grad from Toronto
eKPardesi May 19, 2012 01:55pm
I could not have said it better ... Thank You.
Adnan May 19, 2012 02:09pm
Good article with factual statistics. We need to access ourselves, self-realisation will lead to prosperity.
Tahir Khan May 19, 2012 02:58pm
I read this article 2 days ago and have read most of the comments. Most of the things mentioned in the article seem to be true about some Pakistanis, success depends on one,s own desire to succeed and also you take lot of inspiration from people around you. I am a Pakistani living in Melbourne Australia,I feel so good to tell you Pakistanis in Victoria are amng the most educated community here, they are working in IT, banking , telecom medicine, accounting and finance etc. I don't know a single person who have tried but didn't a job,we all drove taxis during our student years and almost got addicted to driving, getting cash payments, no boss but when got engaged though enough is enough need to find a job, started on low salary, drove taxi on the week end and within a year or so gave up week end driving. Every body was saying very hard to find a job here, even if you get one will be very low paid,better keep driving taxi. You guys will be surprised to know how many Pakistani doctors are working Australia and Melbourne in particular and most of them with Pakistani qualifications, but they worked hard passed Australian Medical Councils exam and the clinical as well,I think the main reason for this is that most Pakistanis in Australia got their residence after getting university degrees in Australia' although there are few I know who Aussie uni degrees and still in the cab business but they are doing really well they have lots of cabs in their fleet and employed drivers, I know people who have made their name by becoming builders,traders and other business, in Australia most Pakistanis do mix with other Aussies for that one strong reason is cricket, they play club cricket and obviously that helps a lot,there are few very conservative minded too, we deal with lots of Indians too and live friendly, play cricket together and have found them no different to Pakistanis in intelligence or any other way,at the end of the day all that matters is what you want to achieve,if you are willing to work hard for that you will get it particularly in country like Canada ,uk, USA or Australia c
Parvez Malik May 19, 2012 03:02pm
The article is based on generality of the situation and not necessarily clamping down one one nationality, Identity Crisis in overseas Pakistani's in North America is rampant, no one to blame. just last night I was having dinner at a patio restaurant in Town Center, Southlake Texas, across the street was Cheese cake factory, on the other side Harkins theatre, a sort of a cross road and there was all kinds of people, young folks in their tight jeans, boys and girls, young and old, and every time without fail my eyes would meet with some one passing by on the side walk we say " Hello" just by nodding our heads, roads and side walks clean as a whistle it was a gorgeous sunny day winding down and here I was thinking loud," What a wonderful world". The Italians, the Mexicans and all other minorities had lived in the abyss of poverty and has re-emerged with times, identity crisis is migration, every first generation resist the change, acceptance, transformation and assimilation comes with future generation in time, and as for Canadian Pakistani's better times will come as they will embrace Canada as Canadians. Parvez Malik Host Politically Incorrect Radio Hot Pepper .Com
Abbas May 20, 2012 02:31pm
Settling in USA is now against Pakistani emigrants ghairat.
kam May 19, 2012 03:29pm
Best advice ever for Pak expatriates in general all over western world. You should be a counselor or a speaker for new immigrants. I have been in US for 20 years and apply the rule not to mix among downers. PaK immigrants have to assimilate without losing core values of progression, be open minded, rationalize your thought process for all Islamic rituals, ask WHY WHY w/o disrespecting. Our county is in decay due to decaying values of tradition and keeping your mind close. Acceptance of rational thoughts will lead to acceptance of other and progress. Poor Allama iqbal tried all his life to shrug these thoughts. Leave the religion in your home and assimilate and accept the west for all the benefit it provides
Tahir khan May 19, 2012 03:31pm
At one stage in the article the writer have talked about not mixing with the local community or other communities, I have been living in Melbourne for over 13 years, and I know Greeks here living over 40 years don't know a word of English , same previous generation Italians, chines and vietnames are here for decades live in their community don't mix up hardly speak English , same with the Russian community they have their clubs and community centers, ask from any one in Melbourne which suburb will you find Jews any one can tell you where they live, I think Pakistani and Indians have edge over lots Asian , Europians, middle eastern and African countries due to English,I know lots of communities in Australia from parts of Europe and Asia have been here for decades and can only say few words of English .
Ankush May 20, 2012 06:25pm
Good on you Margereta. I quite like that.
kabeer May 19, 2012 06:53pm
your all advice are great
smurtaza81pk May 19, 2012 04:21pm
Canada have one of the highest income tax in the world.An average Canadian pay 40% of income tax then there is GST as well.Comparatively USA have lower taxes and lower GST.Pakistanis working and settled in USA are more better off then Pakistanis living and working in Canada. Canada is expensive whereas USA is cheaper.Petrol in Canada is $1.5 per litre whereas gas in cheaper in USA.Long story short survival and life and job situation is harder in Canada,UK or Australia then USA.
smurtaza81pk May 19, 2012 04:22pm
Same happens in Australia
Bilal May 19, 2012 09:43pm
Agree, pakistanis in australian are also dishonest (not all of them) like in other countries, they get jobs that pays under the table, they do not declare any income and they keep getting money fron centerlink, and its good money, some even has cars that I would think twise before bying.what a shame they bring to the name.
Bilal May 19, 2012 09:49pm
wow wow ... hold on a sec, did you just had a "living in a bubble" moment? reality check brother, pakistan has one of the worst record in protecting the minorities, it's on the paper, it's on the streets.
Bilal May 19, 2012 09:51pm
Yes, keeping in mind the fact that canada did better than US during GFC.
Ahmad28 May 19, 2012 10:21pm
We really are a strange lot
Mustafa May 20, 2012 08:49pm
BELIEVE IT OR NOT, Canada is the best country in the world, even better than USA. There is absolutely no racial discrimination in Canada. A Sikh was Premier of British Columbia. A Muslim is Mayor of Calgary. There are Muslims in Federal Parliament. Constitution of Canada protects all minorities and there is equal justice for all. When Muslims migrated to India hundreds of years ago, they became Indians and not remained as Arabs, Turkish, Iranis, Mongolese etc. etc. The great poet and philosopher Iqbal said "We are Muslims and the entire world is our mother-land". Therefore, people who have migrated to Canada and made this country their homeland, should become true and faithful Canadians and do not keep their feet on two boats, one on Canada and one on where they came from. They should speak the language of the country so their children can be fluent in English or French and become fully integrated in Candian population. If they are not happy in Canada, go to another country and do not waste their time here.
Naumaan May 20, 2012 07:25am
If these immigrants feel shame to do work outside of their expertise or even dont pursude further education then they forget that our Prophet (S.A.W.S) never felt shame in doing labour work although he belonged to ruling class of Makkah. So these immigrants must feel shame in sitting idle. These are the same citizens of Pakistan who never worked hard in Pakistan, went to Canada and US to fulfill their dreams come true but always call the home country with bad names.
sameer May 20, 2012 12:46am
real migration of pakis 2 canada began in mid 2 late sixties but only restricted but starting from 72, most of da restrictions were lifted, though not all and many pakis began migrating 2 canada in large droves
Mubashir May 20, 2012 12:54am
".....And than they dont wanna get out this world coz they make cash money, report low income and get full child benefits and other welfare aids. Basically they are all eating haram there. Taxi driver makes 4000$ a month cash, plus 500$ for each kid, on avg they have 4 kids so thats 2000$ free money from govt. Plus a few months in a year they go on welfare too while keep driving taxi as well so thats another 1200$ a month. So now tell me who would like to leave this attractive business
curious May 20, 2012 01:26am
can you please tell me where you got the stats about 400-500 per mnth/per child? i know a single mom with 2 kids and she gets only 100 per mnth/per child.
taharafai May 20, 2012 01:37am
probably you did not explore Canada but Toronto. I live in Alberta and if you are engineer and do not get job then something wrong with the person. My cousin, did not find job for two years in Toronto, finally moved to Calgary just a month ago and he had three jobs in two weeks, not even P.Eng yet. Let's stop blamming others and move to Alberta, if you are engineer. there are over 300 pakistani engineers working in as professional engineer in private/public sector Regards
taharafai May 20, 2012 01:55am
Just for your information even Doctor graduated from America or any other developed county would follow the same process. Just for your, in 2010 some of the provinces hired doctors directly from other countries.
taharafai May 20, 2012 02:16am
Send your friend to Albertta, if he does not ger job, then something wrong with your friend not with the Canadian system. JUST GET OUT OF TORONTO, IF YOU WANT TO SUCCEED.
Smith May 20, 2012 02:46am
Australia is very expensive, its very very far away from Europe and America.Australia is basically a minning country and its not for technologist,researchers or scientists.
Nazim May 20, 2012 02:48am
Yes I am a Pakistani Canadian and driving taxi in Toronto. I know recently one of the Professor at a Grater Toronto Area (GTA) University seen a lot of Asian student in his class he wrote a book asking a different grading system for students from Asian origin and Canadian. In the article a professor in GTA University from Pakistani origin have blamed religion and culture for the poor status of Pakistani immigrants. It is not uncommon a lot of Pakistani do this specially highly qualified ( recently Mr Haqqani). I also disagree with the writer about systematic barrier. I am in Canada from last 13 years and I know all level of Canadian Government have done their best to protect the interest of Financial sector whereas manufacturing sector is being neglected ( Financial Sector is dominated by white Canadian where manufacturing sector is dominated by immigrant from Italy to Pakistan. Canada has very good system but a very good system is abused for systematic discrimination. I can give hundred examples of examples about systematic discrimination. But I give only one for now. Yes I am driving taxi in Toronto but also have a license for a profession that comes in mandatory license category in Canada ( mean no one can work in the profession without license) A local government in a Canadian province is looking for 4 person with the license from last 15 month. The vacancy is being updated every month and I apply every month clearly mentioning that I have the license. They are not able to fill a single post during last 15 months but they don't consider me because my name says I am different. Thanks
Smith May 21, 2012 06:07am
Canada and Australia and UK have one of the highest income taxes in the world.An average Canadian/Australian pay 40% of income tax then there is GST as well.Comparatively USA have lower taxes and lower GST.Pakistanis working and settled in USA are more better off then Pakistanis living and working in Canada or Australia. Canada/Australia are very expensive whereas USA is cheaper.Petrol in Canada/Australia is $1.5 per litre whereas gas in cheaper in USA.Long story short survival , life and job situation is harder in Canada,UK or Australia then USA.In USA demand and supply is much much more due to its huge population whereas Canada and Australia have low population thus low demand/supply.
Tahir khan May 20, 2012 01:02pm
I ve been living in Australia for last 13 years and I ve seen most of the people I know getting job, yes they did struggle in the start but after some time they found job and are working in nearly every field from doctors to engineers and IT and accounting, banking and finance, only those are driving taxis who either have become successful business owners or those who do not want to do another job, because obviously whern u driving a cab u don't ve any boss and yes the new job might pay less after tax dedication and it is same with most of the migrants from south Asia,but I know several even with Pakistan experience are working in IT, Engineering and medicine, it all depends weather u want easy way or hard way and can assure u most of the Pakistanis are well settled and not behind other communities and working in their fields.
Syed. Nasir Mehdi May 20, 2012 10:31pm
Do ot wory guys . In Pakistan run about half a bread, so imagine our poverty line. On the other hand ask Mr. Gillany about the destination of 2/3 Pakistanis
SFO May 21, 2012 03:30am
Met a Pakistani-Canadian at my sister's place. He was her coworker from Toronto. His wife was Indian and used to work in Hyderabad. But after the marriage, he forbade her from working. They had no children yet. For 4 hours that the party lasted, he made his wife go inside and play with my sister's little girls while he lectured us on Islam and importance of keeping men and women separate. Finally, one of my sister's western friend quipped - "But you have been talking to us for so long. Does that rule apply only to the women in Islam?" I don't recall what his reply was but it wasn't memorable. Needless to say, he was not invited to any other parties.
SFO May 21, 2012 03:33am
I think the author used the data available from the census while you are basing your argument on anecdotal evidence.
ali May 21, 2012 03:34am
the article and associated comments are realities and lets face it. But there are few things that we can do and get something better of Canada. -If you have a graduate degree and experience from Pak, good, but look it in the perspective of Canada, is there any chances of getting a professional job in your field, if yes, join any college or university and get a diploma/certificate. If you think that it is not possible or very hard to find a job in your profession, change it based on the job market statistics, or ask someone. But remember that a Canadian employer will give you a professional job only if he fails to find a real Canadian for it. this is true and please accept it. Based on my experience, I will recommend to any new immigrant to go west or east and stay there for a while. It is comparatively easy to get a professional job there rather than in Ontario. Having said that, based on my experience, it is not easy to live in a rural communities in the west or east, really its tough. Its easy to say merge into Canadian societies but practically its not that easy. -Also, think about starting a business, that's why Canada is called the land of opportunities. Most of the Indians and chinees' are doing businesses. -further, Canadian government has spent millions of dollar on settlement, but honestly speaking, settlement services has failed to deliver. People working in these organizations, mostly women, are getting salaries and other benefits and most of the time playing lotteries by scratching lottery ticket. Ironically, you will not find a single immigrant in these settlement organizations, which does not make any sense. -You can not come blindly and live in Canada as like our beloved country Pak, you have to do some planning. -And finally, when you reach Canada, please stay away from those who are running taxi or working in factory. this is based on my personal experience. Driving taxi or working in factory is not bad, but don't make it your purpose, rather do it for a while to reach your ultimate goal of getting a professional job.
sfo May 21, 2012 03:39am
Really? What's your source of data? From my anecdotal evidence, things got worse as deteriorating security situation and rampant corruption in education has lead to more scrutiny and higher visa rejection rate. Not to mention the fact that all consulates now view Pakistanis as a security threat.
ali May 21, 2012 04:05am
Also, we Pakistani very happily come to Canada and celebrate our arrival, but we never accept Canada as our final destination. We always look back and think of settling in Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi. For that purpose, what we save here, instead of investing it in Canada, send to Pakistan and buy plots there with no return. In contrast, Indian once arrive in Canada take it as there final destination and start working hard to get settle here. Sadly, due to very week regulations and corruption in our country, majority of Pakistani have there jobs in Pakistan and they keep it even though they are living in Canada. They will try to extend there leaves by bribing their department in Pakistan. Such activities are not only illegal, shameful but are also instrumental in their unsettling in Canada. I myself and so many of my friend that I know went through the same vicious circle. I am not in favor of both husband and wife working, particularly when children are small, as our children need mother to be staying in home to take care of them. We have some values and traditions which we have to keep alive and we can not behave like other communities. If kids are older enough that they can differentiate between good and bad and take care of themselves, then it is perfectly fine for both husband and wife to work. Canada is a nice country, its people are very nice. we get many facilities in Canada which people like me can't even think of such getting such facilities in Pakistan. There is discrimination, but its natural. We maintain discrimination to our brothers based on color, status, or nationality in Pakistan, so don't take it very serious. Just work hard. Keep in touch with your religion. Whenever your are working, try to pray, believe me Canadian employers are so good in understanding and acknowledging religious beliefs. Be honest, don't practice things that is very common in Pakistan.
Srini (San Jose,CA) May 21, 2012 05:32am
It is mixed up because there is no comparison between Indians and Pakistanis in Canada in the "rich" category, Indians are way way ahead, the divide is too big and there is hardly any similarity between these two groups even to compare the factors causing this (sorry no offense to anyone). However in the low-income families of the two nationalities, there are many similarities, similar life styles, similar jobs held,similar difficulties faced, there are many similarities that you can compare why one community did better than the other. Hope it makes sense to you now.
Smith May 21, 2012 06:03am
Australia is very expensive, its very very far away from Europe and America.Australia is basically a minning country and its not for technologist,researchers or scientists
Smith May 21, 2012 06:05am
USA is still super power, survival of Pakistan and Pakistani economy completely depends upon USA.
knanjund May 21, 2012 06:35am
Any migrant community that refuses to assimilate with the local culture will be alienated and is bound to suffer socially and economically. Does anyone have analysis how pakistanis are doing in Arab nations ? It amuses me why is the blogger repeatedly comparing Indians,
dunya ali May 21, 2012 07:22am
very true, my mother, a very famous doctor in karachi, seems to be struggling to pass her exams so she can continue her practice, no silver lining yet. so have other families been sturggling like us and are having to go through harsher times compared to us.
Mirza May 21, 2012 11:31am
super-cool reply...I have no words to appreciate. Thank you very much. I really needed this motivation as I am about to finish my Masters in Physics in Canada...
Amir Habib May 21, 2012 12:20pm
U c people move to new place, leaving their motherland, is for some strong reasons.I am sure no one does this for fun only. Unfortunately the socio- political sceniaro in Pakistan is very depressing. Both the politicians and military have been the worst exploiter of national exchequer. Pakistani are not so bad in Canada but yes we need a lot to understand the Canadian system and job market and value system before coming here. Also we need to give up the attitude which stops us from our mission of contributing the maximum to our society, whether we r in Pakistan or in Canada or else where.
Tahir khan May 21, 2012 12:46pm
Wel I live in Australia ,any one who doesn't get the job of his choice starts talking discrimination weather it's Pakistani,Indian or chines or European,if u r prepared to work hard and willing to learn and adapt u will succeed regardless of ur background. Social welfare have been abused or used by every back ground, first generation,can any Indian,chines, east European ,Vietnamese, Russian,or african can swear they didn't go to welfare. I work in a bank and I can assure u all these back grounds I mentioned line up every fortnight to see if their government payments are in their account.I can assure u particularly eastern Europeans and Greek, russians and Italians and vietnames are at the forefront.they work cash in hand jobs and take advantage of welfare.
Mohammed Shafiq Rao May 21, 2012 01:29pm
I'm a Pakistani Canadian working for a major telecom operator for last almost 11 yrs in their sales and service dept. I have a masters in Physics from University of Punjab but here after paying all taxes I and my family are living pay cheque to pay cheque, no disposable income or savings whatsoever. I do feel my salary has not gone higher as my qualification is. But there is a clean and organized life plus safe environment. Pls do not come to Canada with a perception that you will save anything after 20 yrs because you won't. You may save more in Pakitan than in Canada. Financial pressure will also impact you family may be marriage if you tried to save excessively by force.
Mustafa May 21, 2012 03:12pm
Those who complain about high taxes in Canada should know that Canada has the best universal health care system which is free to all Canadians and immigrants. In USA some people have to sell their houses to pay for major surgery or prolonged hospitalization.
Bashir May 21, 2012 04:18pm
I think these stats are eye opener for all of us. There is no free lunch anywhere in the world. You have to earn it and when you learn to earn it many good things come your way as well. Most of the comments are commendable and honest opinions and we all should reflect and do introspection. We have also seen people struggle and create new business like Crispy Naan with no prior experience. But this was not achieved on any body's back. Lot of blood, sweat and tears were part of this success story and of course His blessing has to be there.
saud May 21, 2012 04:20pm
dear babajaan. I 100% agree with your suggestions and surprised to find similarities with my thoughts. We desi's come to Canada and first things we look for is/goals are: how to get rich in a short time rather than improving our skills, how to defraud the system by using fake credit cards, social service, getting big homes etc We feel satisfaction in criticizing how prejudice the people of this country are while completely ignoring the hate, prejudice, discrimination of our own .
Azaz May 21, 2012 07:24pm
This comment has to be The Most Funny thing i saw today. Mr. sadfasfasdf, please get your facts straight and then get ur name straight ;) Pakistan is one of the worst places for minorities dude! God bless Pakistan!
Imran May 21, 2012 08:20pm
Mr. Ahmad.. come see Pakistan.. i think you have bitter experiences .. But Pakistanis are a competent as other..we have reservations that are valid... We Pakistanis don't mingle too much with other communities, as we don't want to be like others...we have our own identity... And we are not prejudice, and we are doing well in all over the world in our capabilities... Pakistan is for Pakistanis and we are happy, what we are.... Soon ppl like you, want to connect with Pakistan...then you will realize what is reality....
Dr>V.K.Pandey May 21, 2012 10:04pm
Excellent and honest openion
Believer May 22, 2012 06:25am
Think ! How Amazing, that Allah is providing you everything although you are non believer as you say? Because he is the divine creator and nurturer of all the worlds. In Quran he says, I will nurture everyone believer or non believer, and mostly non believers will be getting more because they will have nothing in the world here after, which is in fact eternal one. Difference is that for us it is a temporary phase and a test and final result depends upon our performance. Believe is that we will restrain ourselves to do anything which will displease Allah and in return he will not only bless us here but in many folds in eternal life. Why not Join us in the League of Allah and enjoy the best of the both world. (Guaranteed)? Fun Part is that Allah loves us so much that’s why he has provided us with the solution of the test as well in the Shape of Quran and Life & deed of our Beloved Prophet. Just spare few days and read the English translation of Holy Quran which is in fact the instruction manual for Human hardware and software? May Allah (SWT) Bless you More!
Omer May 22, 2012 03:28pm
Dear Dinesh Its you who is missing the praying and meditating he isn't being ungrateful to Canada or Canadians for that matter and also someone with an attitude like this is an asset (wherever he is living). Also to be LOYAL and THANKFUL to Canada is part of our religion and praying is actually REINFORCEMENT of these values.
Omer May 22, 2012 03:36pm
:) you just want people to reply to your comment regardless of how absurd it sounds. Get a life bro
Omer May 22, 2012 03:40pm
for one both the countries have the same age second we share the same social problems (more or less), third we have always been brought up thinking Indians as our Arch rivals and lastly author might have an Indian Mother in Law :)
truthfinder May 23, 2012 06:19am
GOOD REPLY ALI......we have no choice and this is the life everywhere in the world..I second your comments....
asi May 23, 2012 11:19am
excellent advises i arrived in canada in dec 2011 working in ware house ur guidence give me encouragement thanks
snaseemkhan May 23, 2012 05:12pm
you have so much free time stop speculation and wasting something use full.talking is cheep
Ram krishan May 24, 2012 02:34am
Dear Babajaan , you mean God will give a better place to all Muslims in heaven and special rewards to Muslim men. On the other hand non muslims can not reach God , if there is one. Why such a discrimination from the almighty?
Asim May 24, 2012 03:16pm
Thats great advice Raza, This is the advice I'm gathering for a website for newcomers to Canada. Check it out and let me know your thoughts!
abs May 24, 2012 03:25pm
Hi Nazim, not to be rude but please improve your english writing skills (cannot comment on your speaking skills as I have not heard you speak). Speaking from experience one of my friends has settled in Australia for over ten years but still struggles to get a decent job. Its only because his english is inadequate for the workforce. Has he done anything to improve it? NO. He knows he should but is just lazy. He would rather watch a three hour hindi movie but would not bother to listen/ watch the News or some documentary on the radio/ tv. Nobody can help him there.
Farhan May 24, 2012 08:30pm
400-500 child per month , can you tell me which province .. I do not think so ... my observation after living for 5 years and not getting single penny from government in the form of any walefare ... Alhamdolilah ... What I have seen , when Pakistan families come here ... they think social walefare is their right and they try to get it by all means and through all sources available , I know personally such families , who are living in low income housing . wives going to get their English improve and getting 2500$ each month by getting admission through intentional low marks in English test ... This is all greed and cheating ... but not all of them doing it though .... Also ... our pakistan people think they are best Muslims in the whole world although most of us dont know what good attitude is ... with Islam in our appearance we carry jealousy , grudges , leg pulling , not working as one nation and community ... still devided on languge , sect . creed , province etc ... pakistani will never change ...
A.S. May 24, 2012 09:36pm
You have done an amazing job! Well done! we need to give this man a medal for loving our people and all people! Well done my man! Keep it up Sir!
AXS May 24, 2012 09:41pm
The solution to this problem is this : the people of Pakistan need to get EDUCATION! more and more substantial and lifelong education! That is the difference between the Indians and Pakistanis. Most Indians are highly educated.
Athur May 25, 2012 10:11am
Why are you happy with our people working as "cab drivers" and hiding their income from the government ? That is IMMORAL and it is wrong. I know you want to defend our people and make apologies and excuses on their behalf but they don't need coddling, they need the truth, they need life long and deep and formal education and they need better moral jobs!
Abdullah May 25, 2012 12:30pm
Patahnoo you are already retired. He has written this article for present times. So please we don't want to listen your success stories, because they hardly matter now. This is about the problems our new generation is facing in Canada. There is no doubt that they face discrimination when it comes to jobs and rule of law.
moHD May 27, 2012 09:51am
it seems you even have never lived in Pakistan
sharjeel farooqui May 27, 2012 09:50pm
I am both sad and appalled at reading the views presented in this article and how the StatsCan's numbers were explained. I somewhat agree with Mr. Murtaza Haider about how Pakistan-born immigrants doing in Canada but the reality is not as bad as Mr Murtaza tried to paint here. Pakistani communities in Canada, just like other communities are thriving. While there are always families that do not prosper as well as others in the society do but they are surely living a life with better living standards. I myself immigrated in 2008, days after Lehman Brothers went belly up and north american economies were in deep recession. I did not come across a single Pakistan-born immigration who is on social welfare or employment insurance as they call it here. One thing I'd like to point out is, instead of focusing on how badly our community is doing in Canada, I strongly urge every single Pakistan-born immigrant or Canadian-born Pakistani in Canada to help support new immigrants in settling in and find ways to get employed faster in their respective fields or further their education. It is not fair to derail our own people just like Mr Murtaza has done here, only because some Pakistani-born immigrants have not been as fortunate as others have been. I myself, always support and help any new immigrant from my beloved country Pakistan. Together we can build a stronger community wherever we go. Thats how Indian or other communities have fostered. I have been utterly disappointed after reading this article and how the numbers were interpreted. Having a phD and an association with Ryerson's research facility, I would never have expected such a derogatory article about our own people. I hope and look forward to Mr Murtaza's response to the deluge of comments that have followed his article. He needs to write another blog to defend his views. I leave the rest to readers Sharjeel Farooqui MBA Candidate at DeGroote School of Business McMaster University
Asad May 28, 2012 05:38am
further breakdown of the analysis would create more prejudice as it will identify the real culprit
Silky May 28, 2012 01:11pm
I agree with the observation, but I think its an unfair comparison. Pakistan doesnt have a "South Pakistan" like India has South India, wherein thousands of engineers are trained and come to western countries and immediately start earning thousands of dollars. If you compare Pakistan with northern Indians only, then I am sure the figures would be the same. After all, northern India and Pakistan are the same land, with same culture and values.
wendy May 30, 2012 04:16am
I definitely agree with Singh and I have friends from both Pakistan and India. I find that Pakistani women just want to sit at home and do nothing and put all the financial stress on their husband whilst the Indian woman is more willing to contribute financially and work as part of a team. I think it relates to the cultural mindsight difference, it could be related to religion I don't know because most Pakistanis might be muslim by name but really they don't know much about the faith, so I think it is definitely cultural in origin, this mindset. Also They dream of the good times back home and yet their lives are far better in the Western country.
gary May 31, 2012 12:43pm
Pakistanis lie to their teeth to claim benefits in UK, even though their meat must be halal.
gary May 31, 2012 01:15pm
Mandeep, in the middle east, Indians are in better jobs than Pakistanis. And arabs do not like pakistanis because they cause trouble. You have to see arab police beating illegal muslims on the street. No words of ummah will help.
gary May 31, 2012 01:20pm
This is typical asian disease, you may say.
gary May 31, 2012 01:47pm
And also in all the gulf countries. I saw in muscat where police catch illegal pakistani and bangladeshi immigrants beating on the street and then deporting them.
gary May 31, 2012 01:49pm
they also teach their children to hate the west, even though they never hesitate to claim benefits from them.
gary May 31, 2012 01:53pm
We are extremely hypocritical about our "values" because we use them only when it is to our advantage. ......well said. Some people pray five times, as they have no work to go to, eat halal meat, and lie ( which is haraam) to get that free money.
gary May 31, 2012 01:57pm
t's just that they like to do everything in cash and not pay any taxes.... greedy people, take as much as you can but do not give anything back. Just like your leaders back home.
Dcet Jun 03, 2012 07:44pm
I do agree what you are saying. One should not blame for the system for his/her failure. Canada has nothing against any religion including Islam. Why we still have our Eid on different days. We have mosques for different school of thoughts. Who's ding it? Canadian government or our own religious leadership.
Sayed Hasan Jul 04, 2012 01:55am
Thanks for sharing such an important and biggest issue that south Asians are facing. I must say Canadian HRDC is failed in utilizing the right available talent at the right place. Today we need lots of doctors, specialists to meet the overall medical requirements to cut down the lead time in timely and proper treatment. Even in case of emergency people will have to wait a long, on the other hand highly talented doctors are having no job in field. South Asians must invest in Chains of departmental stores and create new business opportunities for them. That is called Supplier-Customer relationship.
Farooq Chishty Jul 09, 2012 04:25pm
I agree with you Omar. The problem is within us. We are not competitive enough for a leveled playing field.
AmpereTurn Jul 28, 2012 10:34pm
I graduated from UBC Electrical Engineering three months ago and have been applying to jobs non stop since then. I have had only one interview yet and no job offers. I am still waiting for my first engineering job.
AmpereTurn Jul 28, 2012 10:44pm
If you are a fresh engineer from Pakistan here, you are basically forgotten , I am a Canadian Engineering graduate for 3 months and yet have to find my first engineering job.
AmpereTurn Jul 28, 2012 10:52pm
I have had schooling in Canada, did high school and university here (electrical engineering) and I still think I am not a Canadian. It's not even Pakistani or being muslim its just if you don't laugh at their jokes, check girls out, talk about getting drunk, you are basically looked as a an alien. I know that because I have studied at Canadian HS and Universities. One example, I went to a networking event of IEEE, there people were eating dinner, the waiter brought me meat, even though I ordered vegi (because of trying to not eat Haram), I asked the wait to switch it, and a company head sitting on the table just made a joke about how lame I was for not eating meat. Think about it in that kind of society how can you be fully Canadian.You can't change your face, even though I have almost no accent, people ask me why don't I go back to Pakistan to find a job, its been three four months and I still have to find my first engineering job. Lot of people I know got jobs through connections... I am still trying and working as temp worker these days...
Asad Ikram Jul 25, 2012 06:13am
Wonderful, thought provoking!
tabi Aug 09, 2012 05:41am
Thanks all of you for sharing precious comments, point out different issue and last but not least solution.......