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‘A grandmother, a new bunker lead to India-Pakistan clashes’

Published Jan 11, 2013 11:36am


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An Indian Border Security Force (BSF) soldier patrols near the fenced border with Pakistan in Suchetgarh, southwest of Jammu, Jan 11, 2013. — Photo by Reuters

NEW DELHI: A grandmother who slipped across one of the world's most guarded frontiers and a new border post being built in response could have been the catalysts for the worst flare-up between the armies of India and Pakistan since 2003, a newspaper report and a resident said.

At least four soldiers, two from each side, have been killed in clashes since last Sunday in disputed Kashmir, where the nuclear-armed states are separated by a Line of Control (LoC) set up in 1948.

Taken together, it is the worst violation of a nine-year ceasefire along the 740 kilometre zig-zag line across the mountainous Himalayan region, although exchanges of gun and mortar fire are commonplace. Both armies are said to maintain snipers and special assault teams close to the line.

“It still is an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation. On some days, people can't step out of the post. If you come out for water, there is firing,” said Gurmeet Kanwal, a retired Indian army brigadier who has commanded troops on the line.

The two countries have fought three wars since they gained independence from colonial Britain in 1947, two of them over Kashmir, a region they both claim. On at least two other occasions, they have come close to war.

While the two countries share a formal international border to the south, all the way down to the Arabian Sea, the Kashmir ceasefire line is where the armies are on a knife-edge.

Strung out on remote outposts in snow-capped mountains and over deep valleys, in some places the soldiers are as little as 50 metres apart.

In other areas, there is a strip of land between the actual line and a barbed wire fence constructed by India.

The fighting can be controlled but merciless. Every violation of the ceasefire by one side is replied in kind by the other. If a soldier is killed on one side, almost certainly one will be killed on the other within days.

The roots of this week's clashes could be traced to Reshma Bi, a 70-year-old woman who slipped across from Charonda village in India-administered Kashmir's Uri district to the Pakistani side in September, to join her sons and grandchildren, India's The Hindu newspaper reported.

Indian authorities, worried about the vulnerability of the LoC, began building a new bunker near the frontier to house additional troops, Reyaz Ahmad, a resident of Charonda, told Reuters. He said it happened soon after Reshma Bi's flight, but could not say if the two incidents were related.

Subsequently, Pakistani troops began making announcements by loudspeaker asking the Indians not to proceed with the construction.

“There were announcements from the Pakistani side for several days to stop the work,” Ahmad said in a telephone conversation. While the Pakistani position was that any construction within 500 metres of the LoC was prohibited under the terms of the ceasefire agreement, India proceeded on the grounds that the bunker was facing the village and not the LoC, and so should not be a problem.

“We can build defences on our side of the LoC. They are doing the same thing that they did when we were trying to construct the fence,” said a defence official in New Delhi who asked not to be named due to the sensitivity of the issue.


Soon after the loudspeaker warnings, firing erupted in the area in October in which India said three villagers were killed, blaming the deaths on Pakistan.

Since then tensions have been running high and, last Sunday, a Pakistani soldier was killed in what Islamabad said was a cross-border raid mounted by the Indians. The Indian army denied any of its troops breached the control line, but said there had been an exchange of fire.

Two days later, further south along the LoC in the Mendhar district, two Indian soldiers were reported killed in a thick forest after what Indian officials said was a deep incursion into their territory by Pakistani forces.

Indian Brigadier Jayant K. Tiwari, the local commanding officer, said the head of one of the bodies had been “badly severed”.

On Thursday, hostilities erupted again in another part of the ceasefire line, and this time Pakistan said one of its soldiers had been killed.

“It is a live LoC. It's not marked by boundary pillars. So this is par for the course,” said Kanwal, the retired Indian officer.

In Pakistan, a retired general who has also served on the LoC, said the fighting would not escalate.

“There will be talks on the hotline between the two sides. They will resolve this,” the retired general said.

“It is not something in the scheme of HQ (headquarters), it is a lower level skirmish.”

Nevertheless, clashes have been rising along the LoC in Kashmir since the November 2008 attacks in Mumbai by militants from Pakistan, which led to a deep chill in ties between the two countries.

Last year, there were 117 violations of the ceasefire, nearly double the previous year's 61 incidents and up from 57 in 2010, according to Indian government figures.

Most have taken place in the southern stretch of the LoC, which India says is the most-used route for infiltration of militants from Pakistan into its side of Kashmir.

"There's been an increase in ceasefire violations. There been an increase in infiltration attempts. That is a fact. And that is something that we are dealing with, both ourselves and with the Pakistani authorities," Shivshankar Menon, India's national security adviser, told reporters on Thursday.

Pakistan denies it is helping push militants across and Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said this week that her country was committed to the ceasefire in Kashmir.

With tensions rising in recent days, villagers on the Pakistani side have also reported an increase in military activity.

"I've seen big movements of army in small and big vehicles since yesterday," said Naveed Chaudhry in the Kotli district of Pakistani-administered Kashmir. "It is unusual and we are worried what is going to happen."

But away from the frontline, top officials in the two countries have sought to contain the fallout from the clashes on the Kashmir frontline.

"Pakistan has its hands full with a full-blown insurgency inside its borders. It doesn't suit Pakistani interests at all to raise the temperature along the LoC," said Senator Mushahid Hussain, who is also a member of parliament's committee on national security.

A top Indian national security official also said the trouble at the frontier would be contained and would not drag down the fragile relationship.

"This is not the first time this has happened and not the sum total of our relations. It is Pakistan we are dealing with, give them some time," said the official, who asked not to be named.


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Comments (141) Closed

Vince Jan 11, 2013 03:07pm
Why don't you guys control your terrorist problem instead of starting a fight with India? Your economy is in ruins and so is your education system. Quit your inflated egos and embrace peace. War is not going to help anyone.
Kalyan Jan 11, 2013 06:36pm
Whatever happens and however things are resolved at a higher level, it will not bring back those who lost their lives. What then is the true value of human life? How can a civilized society allow people who take other's lives get away with it? This is something to think about.
goodperson Jan 11, 2013 06:59pm
the world is laughing at both india and pakistan . the border politics is too old school.. think 21 st century where world is involved in technological developments , medical sciences and these 2 nations are fighting killing innocent soldiers who have nothing to do with political conflicts .. instead of eradicating poverty, educating youth and future of tomorrow.. shame on those who divided these nations and shame on those who are fighting on this..
Nina Jan 13, 2013 10:18am
Kumar Sb, I so wish you were right. Just cast a sight on your nations leading news sites and you will see that the jingoism of the past is very much alive and kicking.
Taxla Jan 11, 2013 06:14pm
Nothing will ever resolve by itself concerning Kashmir till both sides agree to create independent state of Kashmir and Kashmiri people can visit their relatives as free and independent people.
gangadin Jan 11, 2013 07:03pm
Well said, it will be very expensive Panga.
Rohit Sharma Jan 11, 2013 02:43pm
When will these two 3rd world countries come to their senses.
ravi Jan 13, 2013 08:54am
asim bhai...yaha bhi halat kuch aise hi hai..!!
Anony Jan 11, 2013 05:40pm
India should stop using excuses to flare things up on the LOC when Pakistan is dealing with terrorism within its own borders. Instead of taking advantage of this situation, india should restrain from useless firing along the LOC and Pakistan should do the same. I'm sick of all the indians posting here and using lame excuses to support their claim. Shame on you guys.
Anony Jan 11, 2013 05:38pm
So killing pakistani soldiers across the LOC is justifyable? Then indian soldiers deserve the same. Using the excuse of militants is an old strategy from india.
Anony Jan 11, 2013 05:38pm
Well said.
Anony Jan 11, 2013 05:36pm
You scared?
Anony Jan 11, 2013 05:36pm
Anony Jan 11, 2013 05:36pm
I agree
Anony Jan 11, 2013 05:35pm
Easy to blame everything on Pakistan, isnt it my friend?
HNY2013 Jan 11, 2013 05:28pm
Each country should build hugely fortified wall at least 500 meters inside their own border, let there be two Great walls of India n Pakistan. No Infliteration from either side. Lets faceaway from each other for next 50 years. No contact no nothing after all its the two nation theory.
akki Jan 11, 2013 05:23pm
May God give strength to the family of all the four soldiers ..
Atif Jan 11, 2013 02:15pm
So you can cross LOC from IOK, even if you are 70 YEARS OLD? That is some professionalism by Indian Army.
sraz45 Jan 13, 2013 09:28am
Well written Sir, yet we know so little how governments and politicians operate in any country. India and Pakistan really need to sort out their differences in a mature fashion. It will bring lot of benefits to both countries. Factions on both countries alway seem to derail efforts, it is a sad situation.India being the larger country should make a bold move which Pakistan cannot refuse, that perhaps could change things. A bold move needs to be made. The Pakistanis should get those who were involved in the Mumbai attacks and India should settle water issues, Kashmir etc. Confrontation or playing the cat and mouse game will just waste more money on armament time which is of the essence.
Imran Jan 13, 2013 09:25am
Hardly surprising. Have you ever been to an indian news website. Nothing but Bollywood and jingoistic nationalistic sensationalism. No wonder they all flock here.
Rahul Jan 13, 2013 07:44am
So, true..
Akram Jan 11, 2013 04:04pm
what a waste of brave young men, the indian army should ask themselves whether this new post was worth the lives lost.
punter Jan 11, 2013 04:36pm
Media needs to be kept out of this as it makes things worse for real decision makers on important matters. All they do is inflame the situation further for public attention and ratings.
Ajay Jan 11, 2013 04:39pm
The entire world is against Pakistan and there are strong reason for that...dont be in seems you guys are thought in your school to never own your mistakes...see what it has done to you....the day PAKISTAN is put in will be a safer place....Afghanistan will progress faster and taker over you very Bangladesh....just saw the news of130 Shi Muslims killed....what Muslim brotherhood is this ??
Bong Jan 13, 2013 07:41am
Bigger mess in FUTURE ?!!
Rahul Jan 13, 2013 08:00am
Pakistan wants UN resolution as it will benefit them.. this theory is out rightly rejected by India.. so, progress can not be made if you keep asking for UN resolution, old rhetoric will not work. solution to this problem can not be found by making it a core problem as this un-ncecesarily increase expectations of general public on either side and the pressure which gets built up will not enable both sides to arrive at a more logical and peaceful solution (read win-win arrangement).. so, 60+ years have passed and till date we are at the same place and the problem passes on generation after generation.. duniya kahan se kahan pahunch gayi, par hum wahin atke hua hain.. its good to love ur nation but just think what we r teaching to our kids.. love or hatred.. this problem is not created by our generation, ur generation paying the prices of mistakes done by our previous generation.. choice is on us.. pass this problem to next generation or solve it thru peaceful means..
punter Jan 11, 2013 04:41pm
I am sure some politicians will benefit at cost of inncocent blood. Very sad.
Rohit Jan 11, 2013 04:09pm
Neither side(India or Pakistan) are trying to escalate this. The media keeps bringing it up because it touches a chord in People's hearts filled with nationalism. Of course nothing is gonna happen in the end.
Bong Jan 13, 2013 07:38am
You are right Yawar - reason 1. Internet penetration in India , both as a percentage and in actual numbers are higher than Pakistan. 2. People reading English Newspaper are higher in India than Pakistan.
peddarowdy Jan 11, 2013 12:21pm
Agha Ata (USA) Jan 11, 2013 03:16pm
Kysi ko to apni nani yad ai hogi.
raika45 Jan 11, 2013 12:13pm
Looks like saner minds in the military top brass on both sides have decided to work things out.The politicians and the belligerent press should stay out. These army men know the situation better.It is the lives of their men at stake.
Sara Jan 11, 2013 01:26pm
Hahaha, kids when will they grow up!
Silajit Jan 11, 2013 01:49pm
Indians were building an observation post, not a bunker. That is why facing the village versus facing the LOC is important.
Shailesh Jan 13, 2013 07:23am
It is so amazing that 1% of powerful people like Politicians and so called owner of religious principles are ruling 99% of people who are just trying to live. No one cares of people, they are interested in land, money and sweet hearts. Only way to have these things, is to confuse & divide people. Unfortunately, there is no end to the greed and these 1% people will continue to rule the world as usual.
KR Jan 13, 2013 08:20am
India should wisely choose diplomatic options to solve this present crisis with Pakistan. It should never resort to a war as it would drag its tottering economy further down. I see here many of my country men prefer diplomatic solution than being jingoistic as they used to be in the past. It is a good sign from Indian perspective. We have better things to do. We need to urgently catch up with China. Pakistan will become a normal nation when all their citizens feel that they need to grow, grow fast and grow richer. Until then let us pray for peace. Kumar
kkk Jan 11, 2013 04:15pm
To Pakistani friends, let me make it clear. It has been a dirty old strategy. When the govt is hit by troubles like scams, unrest within the country that affects the stability of the govt or when an incumbent govt desperately needs support for their next election, they tend to escalate war with neighboring countries. Filthy Congress politicians, they are playing their cards just before elections......
Topi Wala Jan 13, 2013 08:08am
And the Pakistani think tank feels kashmiri want to be with pakistan ... lol I think they need to rethink. Please do something for economy, who many years will US feed.
Sialkotia Jan 11, 2013 01:06pm
Can we afford to take Panga at this time ?
peddarowdy Jan 13, 2013 08:04am
I was referring to building bunkers and observation posts, even if it means going against the agreements of the LoC. Read the story, that acted is claimed to have started this. I never said killing is justifiable, but what I mean is securing oneself against infiltrators, even if the other side will deem it provocative. If things come to the brutal act of killing, its rather a Pakistani life than an Indian one. Since, we have most of the advantageous positions and the fact that Pakistan is stuck with playing hide and seek with the Taliban, you better hope things don't stoop to that level. Its more important for Pakistan to not to provoke or retaliate without thinking, than India.
Baig Jan 13, 2013 09:18am
Read history to get you answer, world is never interested in justice for someone else but justice will be done - eventually. Yes, Pakistan and India can be good neighbors and can achieve a great deal in the future but Indian injustice, atrocities and oppression can not carry on for ever - history tells us that.
Nissar Jan 11, 2013 07:49pm
If war erupts due to this incident, it could lead to more disintegration for Pakistan. From what I hear,seperatists in Balochistan are waiting for the Western Border to get busy so they can have their way. It is high time the army on the Western Frontier stays put - lest half of Pakistani land mass will be a goner!
Rao Jan 11, 2013 08:03pm
I read somewhere recently that whenever Pakistan and India start dialogue something happens mysteriously, no one saw mutilating the corps of Indian soldier, it could be terrorists who have beheaded number of Pakistani soldiers. Even Indian army says they did not see Pakistani army on their land, they are speculating as they saw a unit close to the LOC in Pakistani area.
Ash Jan 11, 2013 08:04pm
So both the country should leave Kashmir issue apart and move forawrd to make good relationship..
Imran Jan 11, 2013 08:11pm
Nothing is new . As any army person will tell you, these clashes have been happening with reassuring regularity since 1948. Its just that now we have internet, instantaneous news channels and a news hungry public plus Govts keen for diversionary tactics.This hotline between directors of operations as been present for over 50 years and is a major factor in preventing wars.
MM Jan 11, 2013 09:19pm
why cant the two sides just solve the Kashmir problem once and for all and end this killing of soldiers and civilians alike? Let the people on both sides freely meet each, after all these are same Kashmiris and their families who are apart because of a LOC or even better, make the two states an independent country. Both the countries have 50%+ population below poverty line, instead of spending on making the next best missile and bomb, spend it on your people.
Ram Jan 11, 2013 09:38pm
I'm surprised Dawn would post the Reuters story which attributes to another publication. That one being The Hindu, a publication with which Dawn shares a mutually respectful and equitable relationship. Praveen Swami wrote the original op-ed in The Hindu and my Indian brethren who might get histrionic are well advised to read that and contemplate. To be fair, I think Rabbani Kher and the Pakistani pols in general have shown a measured - if not dispassionate in their response. Thankfully, Indian administrators have matched it somewhat. It behooves us - people on both sides - to tone it down. The lives are lost and we must be sorry about it but we shouldn't cause more bloodshed and mayhem. Let's try peace and moderation for a change.
sajid Jan 11, 2013 09:47pm
u r right
Raja Jan 11, 2013 11:20pm
India is digging its on grave if it is infiltrating into Kashmir and Baluchistan. If Pakistan loses , India will lose too. You are not dealing with a banana republic.. I dont think the so called Indian think tanks understand that. I wish India gets that soon.
Ganesh Jan 12, 2013 12:48am
India, Pakisthan and Bangladesh have achieved nothing in last 66 years.....We fought each other, we divided ourselves into various religion, various communities like shia,sunni,castes etc...More than 40 % of population still living in poverty in these countries....South asia cannot progress like China or Germany if our mindsets don't change.
Ganesh Jan 12, 2013 12:54am
daadi nay ladwaya dono countries ko...
majid canada Jan 12, 2013 01:05am
well said raika.
AHA Jan 12, 2013 01:37am
Both side need to cool down.
samar Jan 12, 2013 03:11am
Move forward to make good relationship without solving the main problem between the two countries is a dream .
mahavir Jan 12, 2013 03:26am
Imran, It appears that you have not read the news properly. Its not about death of two Indian soldiers, but the manner in which their bodies were mutilated. One soldiers was beheaded and his head is missing. The last rite of the soldier was performed on soldier's body without head. For Indians such killings are v.ghastly and people are asking Indian Govt about its wisdom in pursuing peace process with Pak, where Pak's army seems to be totally against it.
mahavir Jan 12, 2013 03:47am
Ash, Its not about Kashmir issue, its about terror issue. India and china has moved ahead inspite of border issues. China and India are doing close to $80 billion trade. The issue is terror as a state policy.
Gunjan Jan 12, 2013 04:38am
Feeling better?
Gunjan Jan 12, 2013 04:40am
The answer is the islamist mindset that doesnt know where to stop. You want peace? They want it too - the difference is that they wont stop at that. A common man in Pakistan is also learning this - the fanatics dont have need for peace, unless its a tactical retreat. Strategically, their existence is based on destroying peace where they see it.
Gunjan Jan 12, 2013 04:43am
You have a point. But then the question is, how could militants go ahead of where the Pakistani soldiers are on the LoC and enter Indian territory? Is it that the soldiers are incompetent in handling this (Unlikely as these are professional soldiers) or is it that they are in cahoots with the militants?
Gunjan Jan 12, 2013 04:44am
Do you have a Congress party in Pakistan? Read again - he is blaming Indian politicians for building a ground for electoral victories on the blood of soldiers
xyz Jan 13, 2013 11:34am
I am sorry to hear about your cousin, may he RIP (rest in peace). However, Indians army doctors (even soldiers) are capable of telling a mutilation caused by explosion from a clean cut or a hack. The phrase is "severed head." You cannot convince us about a lie, and neither can you confuse us.
teddy Jan 12, 2013 04:51am
o hello, we have nothing to do with your territory, atleast not by violence, look at the 100 people killed in quetta, now tell me, who is pakistan's enemy?
teddy Jan 12, 2013 04:54am
sure, why not?
teddy Jan 12, 2013 04:56am
oh yes, you are right, China has moved ahead, and we are still fighting
Hari Jan 12, 2013 05:03am
How will India lose, if Pakistan loses? You always try to get cold comfort by equating India with Pakistan. That ambition is good. But it should be reached in a positive, constructive way. Otherwise, only Pakistan will lose.
SR Jan 12, 2013 05:29am
I contemplated on how to answer this one. Nothing will happen or can happen in Baluchistan when it comes to separatism unless it is the will of God. Only 5, may be 6 out of 37 districts in Baluchistan are afflicted with this so called "insurgency" and they are surrounded by extremely pro-Pakistan elements. Believe me I was there three months ago and I have interfaced with Baluchis, the majority and the sensible amongst them fully understand that even if they were to get this "independence" that people like you keep harping about, they will still be at the mercy of these feudal bigots, the sardars and nawabs. Only 37% of the population of Baluchistan is Baluchi and not even 50% of them are for this so-called independence. The rest are Pathans, Brauhis and Settlers. I rest my case. My advice to you: think sensibly and realistically before you open your mouth.
PTBP Jan 12, 2013 05:32am
Same can be asked about Indian side. what indian soldiers are doing on LOC if they can not stop militants from coming to indian side. You can say about Pakistan army that they are supporting the millitants,but that surely is not true about Indian army,so what does it mean,Indian soldiers are incompetent to stop these militants.
PTBP Jan 12, 2013 05:43am
it is now more than 10 years that Pakistan army is busy at 1) Eastern borders 2) Western borders 3) fighting in tribal areas 4) supporting flood and earthquake victims and if despite all these engagements of army,separatists are still waiting for more fronts to be opened for Army so they can get the Baluchistan independence, I really doubt whether they are separatists fighting for Liberation or bunch of cowards who can only destroy Gas pipelines and power transmission lines.
Akram Jan 13, 2013 11:10am
The people behind the twin towers destruction were all saudis living in US. Whats that got to do with this discusiion?
Iron Fist Jan 12, 2013 05:46am
India will never go for a third party mediation or investigation of the incident. Her case is weak like the claim of Indian Held Kashmir. In Kashmir India did not implement UN resolutions as she dreaded defeat in a fair plebiscite. Same here, Indian claim is false hence refusing UN mediation, yet again
PTBP Jan 12, 2013 05:48am
Media needs to be kept out not only this matter but even out of our life as well. I do not know about India but since getting the liberty, so called free media has made most of our nation psychopaths.
Ihtesham Kayani Jan 12, 2013 05:52am
Yes incompetent to the core, like you were when Mumbai attacks happened. Your navy was fully alert as a naval exercise was going on but you still could not prevent the attacks and you are blaming Pakistan for incompetency for not guarding a porous border?
HNY2013 Jan 12, 2013 05:55am
Lets build two Great(er) walls of India n Pakistan. No contact from either side. Lets face away from each other for next 50 years. Cause we hate each other so much. Do not think love has a chance. No contact no nothing after all its the two nation theory.
Bong Jan 12, 2013 05:59am
Some dreams are worth following !!
Nina Jan 13, 2013 11:01am
Cool Monk, how does Baluchistan come into the same caregory? Is there any UN resolution on Baluchistan declaring it disputed territory? Please explain yourself.
Indian Jan 12, 2013 07:26am
Cant intellectuals and mature politicians on both sides sit down and solve Kashmir issue once and for all ? Citizens on both sides should pressurize governments to keep vested interests in control. Instead of fighting over Kashmir we should be fighting against poverty, corruption, illiteracy and religious fundamentalism.
Gary Jan 12, 2013 08:02am
Extend that to hundred years.
Gary Jan 12, 2013 08:04am
It is a matter of time,no if,but when?
Gary Jan 12, 2013 08:06am
Not when one side is obsessed with their religion, not till they glorify death more than life.
DawnReader Jan 12, 2013 08:43am
Pakistan has already taken over half of Kashmir, called Azad Kashmir. Let the other half remain with India. Also, There are five main rivers that originate in Kashmir and go into Pakistan. India should never lose its control of this asset of fresh water. Never.
Ikram Jan 12, 2013 08:45am
Did Indian soldiers see militants coming? No?? The same way they could have dodged Pakistani soldiers. Why do you always think a Pakistan's Military hand in everything
Ikram Jan 12, 2013 08:47am
we have our ruling party in Pakistan in trouble toooooo
Ikram Jan 12, 2013 08:51am
well mahavir, spokesperson of Indian Northern command has already negated the news about mutilation of dead bodies and beheading of Indian soldier. Its what your 'rating hungry' media which has somehow crafted a hot cake story
Shrirang, Navi Mumbai Jan 12, 2013 09:07am
Are you OK ?
Anu Singh Jan 12, 2013 09:28am
rather than ,
Indian Jan 12, 2013 10:18am
Pakistan should be aware. no one wants war. neither india nor pakistan. pakistan should remember that they have lost all 3 wars against India.
johney Jan 12, 2013 10:33am
both countries must be friendly .......... fighting gives nothing it can cause colossal damage to both of the countries .............. if i would be the president first i would like to make friendly both of the countries
Sameer, India Jan 12, 2013 10:58am
People always ridiculed me when I said India and Pakistan will have a peaceful coexistence forever. They claimed my "Aman Ki Asha" will never work with the Pakistan. But still I believe, truth and non violence are more powerful than violence and falsehood, because that is the true nature of our soul. My sincere request to all my brothers and sisters in both India and Pakistan is that strive for peace and prosperity not for violence and destruction, work for the soul not for the ego.
Piyush Jan 12, 2013 11:09am
Lets just build a wall like the one in Berlin only one much higher and impregnable. The two nation theory clearly postulated and laid it down as the foundation of Pakistan that these two countries are designed to stay separate. Clearly, the peace overtures are just that, overtures and will not lead to anything meaningful. So lets just agree to disagree and go our separate ways. At least young men wont lose their lives pointlessly and 4 month old babies wont be condemned to lives without fathers.
Asad Munir Jan 12, 2013 01:05pm
I am from Sargodha, Pakistan and what i understand is both sides portray totally different picture of what is going on.To talk of war between two nuclear armed nations is sheer madness.Why not involve United Nations and let them conduct an inquiry and decide who is at fault and even if Pakistan is at found at fault, at-least we will know the truth and then may be we can move on. Other wise things can escalate in a spiral chain of events.Lets hope sanity prevails.
No hope. Jan 12, 2013 01:48pm
Kalyan,when we look deep into the practices of the way our governments work,corruption,poverty,no energy,are Pakistan and India really a civilized nations? because a handful people on both sides have boat load of money does not make the countries civilized.If you combine both the countries,majority of the people go to bed hungry with no roof over their heads,thats not civilized,sorry.
No hope. Jan 12, 2013 01:52pm
Lets not blame eachother,we the people of both countries aren't the bad guys,we don't want a war,we want to live in peace,lets hope and pray that our governments can over come their differences,as people,we do it all over the world by living side by side.
shahidmasud12 Jan 12, 2013 02:50pm
Let the people of Kashmir decide their own fate. Either Pakistan or India has no right to impose their will.
Dev Jan 12, 2013 03:22pm
Ram, Praveen Swami is known for his access to Intelligence and Military officials, so this story does have some force. But please do remember that he himself said that he wasn't able to verify reports about beheadings by Indian soldiers, and the Pakistanis never made that claim either. We do, however, have bodies with missing heads on our side, so that does not need further verification. Unless, you are suggesting that Indians themselves chopped off heads of our own to cook up a macabre tale. And while it is true to that there may have been a genuine dispute about building bunkers, rather than sorts this out using proper channels, Pakistani troops on the ground decided to deploy force, leading to the inevitable response. As to why Dawn would chose the Reuters report, and not the original - this one has picked the juiciest bits selectively, and left out contentious portion. I'd urge Pakistani Dawn readers to have a look at the original Hindu article, the clarification by Indian military to that article, and a subsequent rebuttal by Swami.
Anon Jan 12, 2013 04:06pm
The Pak army should do exactly the same.
asim Jan 12, 2013 05:12pm
"intellectuals and mature politicians on both sides"....ummmm I dont know about India, but this doesnt exist on Pakistan!
PAKISTAN Jan 12, 2013 05:28pm
cool down both sides! live with peace harmony.0.001 percent people want any clash and we, being two sensible nations, should always keep our hands joined together to resolve all disputes to become prosperous nations of the world and just chill,chill just chill.
Anon Jan 12, 2013 05:34pm
You have over-simplified the problem. So the solution also appears simple to you. It is not, my friend. A fellow Indian.
jalebi Jan 12, 2013 05:48pm
let me first of all state that i am neither in favour of pakistani politics nore indian politics. the main reason these counrties still cant progress ( as much as they could have ) is that they heavly invest in the defence department. ONLY solution is to solve kashmir issue . why cant pakistan and india both give up there terrory and let the UN organise elections so that kashmiri people can chose there own leaders rather than someone sitting in delhi or islamabad doing tht. peace love and respect to you all
aLi Jan 12, 2013 06:03pm
Also no watching of movies, shows, celebrities. Hmmmm......I dont think its a possibility...then why so much hate? That's so because politicians can have something to talk about and diverting peoples attention from main issues, and armies can have their biggest pies from national exchequer.
naz Jan 12, 2013 06:11pm
hope nothing happen but young minds get effected fast,they t hink its true .
Abdurrauf Jan 12, 2013 08:12pm
Yes Jelebi,,, I agree with your comment. The reality is that the UN resolution is still sitting in files and India not is ready to implement it. It demands the referendum to decide the fate of Kashmir, if they want to join Pakistan or India. The fact is India will never sit in peace and will never develop until it agrees to UN resolution which was passed on the request of Indian government of that time. This war will continue and may turn into a nuclear war one day because the patience is decreasing due to Indian wrong stance of calling Kashmir its territory and violating UN resolution.
Imran Jan 12, 2013 08:12pm
Yes, you've made your point about the 2 nation theory, now calm down.
Abdurrauf Jan 12, 2013 08:17pm
If India want to develop, they should help implementation of UN resolution on Kashmir. If not they will be bogged down in a bigger mess in future.
Imran Jan 12, 2013 08:19pm
In May 1989 one of my cousins was martyred in Siachen. He was a Pakistan army major. Unfortunately his position came under direct artillery fire and his body was so badly mutilated from the explosion that with only very great difficulty was it possible for us to put the parts together for burial and final rites. It is possible for a direct mortar round to inflict horrendous damage on the human body. I have seen it.
Ip Jan 12, 2013 08:21pm
As many observers, journalists, military analysts have pointed out over the years, there is so much cooperation between the Pakistani Army and what the world considers terrorist groups, that there is really no distinction between the two. Any movement of this nature and scale across the LOC and more than half a km into Indian territory cannot happen without facilitation by the Pakistani Army, and that cannot happen without clearance at the highest levels. So, please, leave this charade about 'non-state actors' to the Pakistanis. It's been a while since that whole dog-and-pony show has fallen flat in front of the entire world. India of course, knew it for donkey's years, but with almost no diplomatic clout anywhere, nobody really cared what India had to say. Unfortunately for the Pakistanis, Abbotabad removed the fig leaf they were using to shield their shameful acts from the rest of the world.
Varinder Abrol Jan 12, 2013 08:42pm
Wonder why is it important to use "Nuclear Armed " in any article from Pakistani writers.
peacefull Jan 12, 2013 08:49pm
those dislike are probably from indians because pakistanis know that elections in kashmir would be in favour of pakistan
Ip Jan 12, 2013 08:56pm
Rohit, please stop dealing in useless hyperbole. There is no moral, economic or social equivalence between India and Pakistan. These are two different countries on their own path. India can keep deflecting this kind of low intensity conflict with one hand tied behind its back for the next ten generations, improving on all other fronts at the same time. The last three decades are ample proof of that. Whether Pakistan will survive this level of conflict, while eating out of its begging bowl, is another story.
Ip Jan 12, 2013 08:59pm
Yeah, the rest of the world was looking on while the twin towers were falling and wondering the same thing.
Sylvain, Paris Jan 12, 2013 09:14pm
What kind of people you are, imagine the pain when some one cut our head !!! at the same time imagine the pain, some bullets hit our body !!! we are not animal i hope ???
Mushtaq Jan 12, 2013 09:20pm
I am surprised to see Indians on Pakistani newspaper. What makes it interesting that they comment as well. Don't they have their own to read, or they have leisure time.
Iqbal Hussain Jan 12, 2013 10:36pm
Mr or Ms. Jalebi, What's the fighting for for the last 60+ years..?? Let Kashmiris decide, what they want with their State, their lives and their future. India or Pakistan should stop throwing away their funds on Defence and do something better for their people. But, powerful army and corrupt politicians will not allow this to happen. Who is sufferring, people....!!! Just demolish the LOC, let people come and go, give them some freedom and relaxation. Hold a plebisite then and U will know the results. Pls. give them a chance to travel, no visas, no identity checks. Once these people have seen, visited and experienced the situation and living conditions of both the sides, they will decide their own future., stay with India, Pakistan or have their own state. This has been a criminal waste of time, money and human lives by India and Pakistan. Pakistan is a failed state, India is totally against muslims, so I believe their ultimate choice will be to saty neutral and establish their own independent State. May God help them. Iqbal Hussain (USA)
azad Jan 12, 2013 10:44pm
then how come we have still big chunk of kashmir on our side.. winning and loosing is a part of game of war.. but the truth is kashmir does not belong to india....
shaq Jan 12, 2013 11:17pm
that is an excellent idea, that is also what we want, at the same time, please take out all your terrorist RAW agents out of pakistan, who r killing women and children on daily basis in karachi, lahore, islamabad, pishawar and supporting the terror in balochistan, thanks, a Karachi, true Pakistani citizen, PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
truth Jan 13, 2013 12:02am
Then can we hope the terrorism from Paksitan will stop too?
kkk Jan 13, 2013 12:10am
Dude I am talking about Indian congress which is facing elections!!!
Ville Jan 13, 2013 12:37am
Pardon me for putting a totally different comment here.... Even if Kashmir people decide to be on Pakistan side, can Pakistan afford it??? Can Pakistan provide them enough food/education/facilities/infrastructure?
manuk370 Jan 13, 2013 12:41am
Keep telling yourself that son...
rishi Jan 13, 2013 12:43am
you should have told that before muslims killed and kicked hindu pandits out.. Its too late for you to say that now.. Good luck, You ll never get kashmir.. period..
Gaurav Batta (@gauravbatta) Jan 13, 2013 12:45am
I am patriotic Indian, feel painful when a Indian soldier dies, but I wont be happy if any Pakistani civilian or Pakistani soldier dies of war. Panchi, Nadiya, Pawan ke jhonkey, koi sarhad na inhe roke, socho tumne aur maine kya paya insaan hoke....(Song from LOC Kargil Movie..) Guys sort it out peacefully, blood is blood, wheather it is Indian or Pakistani soldier, one family dies without death.. Please do understand.
Sanjay Jan 13, 2013 01:56am
I just cannot imagine how much progress in economy and employment and people's good it will be - if India and Pakistan were close friends. Sad that is not the case. Trade will boom. China and US will be wiped out and we together will be the economic powerhouse of the world. Hope that happens sometime in future when a sensible set of people rule both sides.
Cool Monk Jan 13, 2013 02:48am
Same goes with Baluchistan too!
Cool Monk Jan 13, 2013 02:50am
Therefore losing the fourth one will continue the trend.
Fayz Jan 13, 2013 06:26am
If India is spending money on Education, Science & Commerce then our leaders are busy in making money through corruption.
Cool Monk Jan 13, 2013 02:53am
Agreed. What's the score today?
Cool Monk Jan 13, 2013 02:55am
Nope - Japan and China also do the same very regularly. World is too busy tackling the recession / depression.
Ali Jan 13, 2013 03:00am
Pakistan is open to this idea so ow you decide who is at fault?
shahidmasud12 Jan 13, 2013 03:44am
Dear Sameer, very well said people belonging to both countries should strive harder for peace , love and harmony .
Durrani Jan 13, 2013 03:47am
It will be a shame for India if they were to loose a war. You have 10 times more soldiers and artillery than Pakistan. Still we trouble you and give you goosebumps.
Yawar Jan 13, 2013 04:01am
Judging from the comments, it is clear that more Indians read Dawn than Pakistanis
desi Jan 13, 2013 04:35am
This is an old rhetoric by Pakistan. No country in the world is interested in your arguments now. Other nations will be worried if Pakistan expands its territory even by an inch. I guess you know the reasons :-)
desi Jan 13, 2013 04:38am
Dear Friend. The days of such arguments are over. The last thing the world needs now is another unstable country bordering Pakistan. I guess you know what I mean here.
dharmendra49 Jan 13, 2013 04:45am
yeah but first let the kashmiri pandits settle there and hav equal population against muslims and then invite UN for voting...all issues will be solved
desi Jan 13, 2013 04:45am
Dear Friend, Its easy to talk this way. Let us assume that both countries agree to make the current LoC as the final international border. Will the terrorists in Pakistan agree to that ? I guess the civilian govt. in Pak has no control over the military. Here I am talking about only one possibility. Just think, even if there are other options, there is no way both sides can be happy. So it takes a few decades to get the maturity to solve this problem.
dharmendra49 Jan 13, 2013 04:54am
in kargil who was at the fault? i think u people gave bravery awards to them
indian Jan 13, 2013 04:57am
Shame on you to say that problem is with only India here. If India wanted to destabilize Pak, it would have done it long time back. First look at what is happening in your country. Day by day, fundamentalism is raising and military is still supporting terrorists like Saeed etc. who openly talk about attacking India. Pak govt. can do nothing to curb their activities. Tell me if people like Saeed are terrorists or not.
indian Jan 13, 2013 04:59am
Yes. Pakistan has proved that it is the epicenter of terrorism in the world today. What makes you think that it is difficult to name Pakistan.
dharmendra49 Jan 13, 2013 05:10am
atleast in the democratic countries, govt forms or break over the public emotions my don't underestimate the fury of general public
munaf Jan 13, 2013 05:30am
If Pakistan wants to be a failed State let them carry on. It is a matter of time,
Trustme Jan 13, 2013 05:42am
A full-scale war is a remote possibility b/w two nuclear rivals. Since both Indian and Pakistan blame each other for LoC voilations, why not both countries allow third part like UN to find which country is at fault at different occastions as proposed by Pakistan this time.