Another obsolete aircraft added to inventory....good going!

Nothing in this world is free!

http://defence.pk/threads/t-37-crash-in-turkey-kills-paf-pilot-on-exchange.153481/page-5

our trainer already crashed and died due to these aircraft in 2012 in turkey.

@Malik it is 'fighter cum training aircraft' will help to train them and will allow more hours of training in the Air.

It is an obsolete aircraft. Even Bangladesh grounded its T-37 fleet. Someone is benefiting here and it sure is not PAF.

First of all the aircraft depicted is a K-8, not a T-37. As far as I can remember, PAF had T-37s back in the day and retired them. Why do we need these again?

@from Twincity Only 3 countries are still operating this aircraft. (1) Columbia (2) Ecuador, and yes you guessed it right - Pakistan. It it was such a decent aircraft for training, 17 other countries would not have put it out of commission.

Turkey is a tested friend of Pakistan.Providing of the training jets is another feather in the friendship of both the countries.

Absolutely obsolete aircraft! Turkey shoved them towards us because of storage isn't cheap.

US Air Force retired T37 in 2009

One man's trash is another man's treasure!!

Winter clean up time :)

Jet retired over 15 years back, I hope Pakistani technicians can make it safe.

@pakistani "Absolutely obsolete aircraft! Turkey shoved them towards us because of storage isn't cheap."

Yes, we are doing them a favor. Pakistan always looking to help others.

@M Jamal Bro, there is no friendship on world stage! It is also foolish to think that Saudis is our friend, you don't need enemies after that.

Sultan Erdogan's small contribution to an already established theocratic (PUB) country, and to showoff what a truly big brother Turkey is.

Turkey is indeed a true friend of Pakistan.

@Arsalan "Nothing in this world is free!"

Please elaborate ! its not polite to question a friendly gesture.

@Saad they're now used in simulated target practice. Like the US air force uses it's early batches of F16s for war scenario simulation. ( Aggressor squadrons). Plus in war time the same old aircrafts act as decoy. Every country saves them. That is why even US Air force still flies early batches of F-5s and F-16s.

T37 was retired by all major countries in the late 90's. Disaster waiting in wings...

This is against the self-esteem and pride of the nation, how can Pak government get into such a deal. No nation rises with such attitude, very poor decision by the establishment as well.

A friend in need is a friend is indeed. Of course , There's no such thing as a free lunch in this world but something like mutual help does exists between friends.

Just the other day Nation was celebrating when Edhi declined the 1 crore donation from Modi, India and here comes this anti-climax. Such short lived happiness.

No nation can progress and rise in the comity of nation with such 'free lunch' attitude. Either you pay for it or don't get it, people of Pakistan has high pride and self-esteem, whats wrong with the government...

Its trainer-fighter plane not actual combat aircraft. Its purpose is to train pilots and not a bad choice to use better planes for training rather 50s era planes. That's why its free of cost :)

Does this deal mean the end of the K-8 Karakorum jointly developed China-Pak jet trainer and light combat aircraft project? If not so, how can you keep both, I don't understand. Can some "in the know" circle making this decision explain? Although these T-37 are 'free', but has anyone raised the question about the strategic price Pakistan could end up paying? Pakistan should further develop the K-8 project and not rely on U.S developed jet trainer.

Thanks to Turkey. T-37 are ideal for training ,and obviously these will be helpful for our PAF.

Sir

It is a thank you for awarding costly metro bus network and possibly a bait to win other lucrative and costly projects in future.

Thanks

By the time I saw the heading I was more interested in pictures than the theory. We can use the spare parts may be sell it on Afghanistan. They can use it for sprays on poppy fields etc

Do they even fire or just fly in sky !!

@ASAD IQBAL The tragic incident must have happened owing to trainer's mistake and not fault in training aircraft. Otherwise, all the training aircrafts would have meet the same destiny.

Nothing is free. Hope they not asking to join new front against Assad, Iran and Russia in Syria.

Good one

I wish someday a friendly country provide free buses or trains for the common people of pakistan. I dont see this day coming.

These aircraft have been retired since 2009!

These could be good ground attack against TTP

Great friend Turkey Thanks alot

This is an old, obsolete airplane.

It is not the aircraft that counts, it is the person sitting in the aircraft that counts. Your comments show your complete ignorance in defense matters.

Although they are old,hopefully they have been refurbished,and @ARSLAN,you are on the money brother,nothing is free,but I do have faith in the decisions being made on military level,unlike our politicians.Some times you have to scratch each others back in order to achieve your goals.

Turky is also all weather friend who unlike Iran, and so-called Arabian brethren is never influenced by negative propaganda of India. Turky is the only friend after China, Pakistan can depend on.

@ASAD IQBAL How many died in Pakistan in F-16 and in old Mirages? Count those and then comment.

We need A10s or AC 130 gunships for ground attack against terrorists. What do we need these obsolete T37s for?

There is no free gift in this world.

@Kamran They will, do not worry.

First of all nothing is for free so there must be something provided in return which cannot be disclosed openly. Secondly T37 trainers have proven record around the world. Aircraft was first developed in 1957 but upgraded many times over the decades. As long as it's airworthy it can be used. US airforce is still using upgraded B52 since 1952 so please educate yourself before commenting about Pakistan making a bad decision.

@N.Sid If you don't pay Taxes, government has to protect the nation whatever government can do without taxes.

@Ammar today people even do not throw junks they just sell it and these are air-crafts man

Another metro project on the way?

@Bilal Assad needs to and Iran needs to stop meddling in Arabs affairs.

@Malik what do u mean another obsolete .....can u name previous obsolete aircraft inducted.....these will used to canibilize as spares for existing fleet...not for operational reasons as they r not combat worthy ....choose ur words wisely as it speaks of one's ignorance

Someone from PAF has to comment about the plan to set up a junkyard in PAF T-37 is quite an obsolete, and under performing aircraft than our own K-8P jet trainer, which Pakistan can build up at marginal cost. I believing these 34 are in addition to 54 T-37B collected from USAAF under excessive defense article. In either case, look like PAF is starting their own charter plane service.

I thought Pakistan manufactured own trainer aircraft and was looking for export orders. So why is there a need for used and obsolete aircraft??

T37 are nothing more than junk age old aircraft.

Great...

These will be useful for operations in Afghanistan against TTP and the emerging IS there - when the time arises for such operations.

@Suleiman Khan Yes brother, others don't seem to realise that these are for the hostile elements (TTP and IS) in our Western neighbour.

The pictures with this article are those of K-8 ! T-37 is NOT a fighter.

I have no idea at all that what are they going to do with these as PAF has already decommissioned all of its T-37s and replaced them with superior K-8.

The T-37 served as the U.S. Air Force's primary pilot training vehicle for over 52 years after its first flight.Introduction 1957 ,Retired 2009 (USAF) ,Produced 1955–1975 ,Number built 1,269 .It was phased out in favor of the Beech craft T-6 Texan II between 2001 and 2009. The T-6 is a turboprop aircraft with more power, better fuel efficiency and more modern avionics than the T-37.

@Malik its a trainer .....obsolete is your Indian way of thinking dont see any hope for you either

@Malik This is a well proven trainer, and it is for training purpose only. Free, that is good. No need to spend more money on a trainer that wont be any better than this.

Why are we still begging other nations for handouts??? So embarassing!

This is bad. Why for free .. being obselete is one concern but then what is it we will be paying back . perhaps a different favor.

@Ammar How it can be? they are FREE

@Ammar Bangladesh has bought 8 brand new Yak-130 fighter jet from Russia which will provide training for 5th generation aircraft to BAF pilots.

Wow - thank you turkey. These are top in the class.

@Malik if someone give you 1995 Corolla free of cost, you'd never say no.. would you?

We are all too ill-informed to judge PAF's decision. PAF pilots are considered the best in the world for dog fights so these trainer jets surely can't be anywhere as bad as most here are claiming them to be. PAF has 2 pilots for every plane as a policy so having additional jets at no upfront cost is actually a good thing.

Would be a bigger help when Turkey build universities, schools or hospitals.

Nothing in this materialistic world comes for free. It may appear to be free but it would definitely have implicit costs that may be along with it, such as military cooperation against the militants fighting near the turkish border.

If my memory serves me right, I had come across an article wherein it was stated that turkish is seeking Pakistan's assistance to fight the turkish whom the turkey look at as terrorists. I hope i am not the only one to have made the right guess.

It is not the aircraft that counts, it is the person sitting in the aircraft that counts. Your comments show your complete ignorance in defense matters.@Lucky Star

Truer words have not been said......Its your will to fight....thats all that matters.....just look at Taliban and US

@N.Sid Edhi sahab is not what he is because of being a Pakistani or a Muslim but because he is a 'pure human' a man with heart and substance.If he would be living in any part of the world he would be the same man.So what he does is completely his deeds but Pakistani governmental and its military represents Pakistan so their decision is Pakistan's decision.

Good gesture by Turkey. Any air craft for training is good, as long as it is safe and Pakistan technical staff can learn from it develop it further. Whats the harm? A question to all the negative comments.

We are making K8 trainers, why we are buying older T37s?

I see comments of old tech.But old can be gold,I am sure they are 100% more reliable than decaying Chinese junk

T37 was star of 1950's best in class.

Stop gathering junk even if its free of cost.

May b they are obsolete & junk . But they are a gift from a friend which has stood behind pak in every situation . So b grateful thanks

Its free of cost why not......

Some of these should be given to Kpk forest department for surveillance purposes.

Of course Turkey is a friend but should not give these obsolete aircraft. We need some thing new no matter high price. Free junk is not acceptable. We are already tired of Metro Turkey thank U, we do not need T-37.

We've had these aircraft for some time. We can rehabilitate them and allow our pilots to train more often. So overall this will be good for our pilots!

What type of comments are these. Instead of thanking Turkey for the good gesture, we are here to find faults in the jets? Pakistan army/air force very well know about the trainers and their durability; and they may have there own plans to renovate them to as good as new -after all we do build our own Saab trainers (Mushaq) so no reason to doubt our ability to make T-37s as useful as any good jet trainer can be.

Why are we so ungrateful.

good aircraft ! thanks to turkey

What about our promise to help them fight the Kurds. No mention of that? Our soldiers give their lives

We can dismantle it and then auction it in scrap market. Thank you Turkey for the honour.

@Hyder Have we forgotten the money dwindling remote Power Station on Ships provided so kindly by Turkey that never delivered any electricity to any one but siphoned off the money ?

Pakistan already have these t-37s from US last ones added in 2008.

Thank you our brother country Turkey!

This aircraft was designed in late 40s (almost 75 years ago) and are only found in museums these days. Typically countries have to pay millions to dispose these aircrafts to the junk yards. I hope Pakistan is getting similar arrangement.

BTW - These planes are so old and past their age that they are a danger to fly. Their best use is probable in museums.

@Malik Why dont you do some research first before commenting on a subject you know nothing about... T37 are already used by PAF as stage 3 basic jet trainers, so adding 34 more free of cost is something to celebrate.

If we don't need them we can always sell it to less developed countries like Bangladesh and use that money to build or buy something useful to the army.

@ Shaam سے
So was Mirage 3/5 but PAF has been using it successfully to date, retirements plans are under way with JF17

@Taimoor Khan FREE and already in service in PAF

No harm done. We can always use them for scrap. We haven't lost anything, yaar. Chill everyone. We love our great Turkish brothers and they love us.

The veteran Cessna T-37 has served the PAF admirably since 1963. These trainers went through a Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) in 1998, and the PAF has sourced parts from other friendly countries that have flown the T-37, to ensure their longevity. US Air Force transferred 59 T-37s to the PAF in recent years. PAF's impressive 6 aircraft aerobatic team "Sherdils" have flown T-37s in Pakistan and at International Air Shows.

Turkish and Pakistan Air Forces have brotherly relations and have conducted joint tactical exercises. PAF F-16 Squadrons have flown to Turkey numerous times to participate in Exercise Anatolian Eagle and Turkish F-16 Squadrons have come to Pakistan for Exercise Indus Viper. Turkish Air Force gift of 34 T-37s is appreciated and gratefully accepted by the PAF.

For all those expressing their usual negativity,

This plane was being used by US for 52 years until 2009, when they retired it. It is still being used by turkey moroco. Its no longer a combat aircraft so anything cheaper for training is better.

Long live Pak-Turkey friendship.

Do we really need air crafts?

People need good education and health.

Unfortunately, we have wrong priorities.

Nothing is free in the world. Pakistan will pay one way or another

I would love if they could have given money or support to improve socio economic for country.

I love the Cessna Tweeti bird, I'd pay for one. There is no better basic jet trainer than a side by side instructor/trainee arrangement in the modern jet trainers. If it wasn't for the military industrial complex, these jets would still be upgraded and flown by the USAF Academy. Please don't undermine our beloved PAF's wisdom and judgment, they try their best to maintain highest levels of operational readiness while trying to minimize the burden on our exchequer. Thanks to our friendly nations and bravo to our PAF chain of command.

@Ammar dear bro.these fighter can be used for techtical pupose. more light and agile fighter for dog fighting. it will even give a run to su 35 fighter

@Malik these fighters are for techtical pupose.more light and agile.easy to maintaine.within no time in the air.these plains are great if you know how to use.they will give even a run to su 35 fighters.

Could this be connected to The Metros and stuff in which the Deputy Prime Minister Shabaz Sharif figures. Surely Turkey benefitted as did The Dy PM.

Just like a bygone era car or s/w is no good today, so are planes for training. If you are still training with a pencil and paper, you can't give an online exam using computers. Simple, Thank Turks and donate to a much needy country, that has no options. Else bureaucrats will scrap it and make a heyday.

Donation from a brotherly brother country.

I value our partnership with the Turks but why would we need these when we already are manufacturing the K8 (jet) and the Super Mushak (prop) aircrafts? Makes no sense.

a perfect deal between Muslim brothers ...maybe one day Pakistan can return the favor by some other means!

Introduced in 1957 and retired by USAF in 2009. Turkish want to get the junk out and Pak is ready to take. i think Turkey is paying to get this out of their junk yard. Pak will refurbish it and make it new to fly again.

Good move. Gaddani ship breaking could not be restored but we have started new scrap industry.

Ridiculous decision to accept the T37 trainer/fighter, it is an obsolete jet. This 'free' thing is a setback for Pakistan's aviation industry. Why not go for the K8?

@Arsalan Friend I know that nothing is free but do you know anything about Turkey, Turkey is Pakistan's best friend.

I have repaired many of them. They are very old.

Free of cost? Sounds fishy.

@Saad You talk about Bangladesh as if it is some backward country! Look up! It is more progressive, educated, commercially active compared to Pakistan! They should start to look down upon you now!

@Suresh u have a point but we are discussing air force and in that regard we look down upon u

One response for all: It looks like I've ignited emotions of quite a few, some calling me ignorant while others challenging my Pakistani-at (if there is such a word). That said, there is nothing to be happy about acquiring units to cannablize them for spares for existing inventory of obsolete T-37 trainers. Like it or not - that's the truth! It speaks volumes on the effectiveness of these aircrafts when you see which are the only 2 countries apart from Pakistan who are still operating T-37: Columbia & Ecuador.

T-37 was a good trainer but maybe a decade or more ago. Technology has changed manyfold and so should the training techniques/equipment. Yes, on the face of it, it's free but as the saying goes - there are no free lunches in the world.

As for someone giving me an example of getting a free 1995 Corolla, well you're right, I won't say no. However, that's me as an individual. You can't compare one of the most prestigious military institutions in our country to an individual. It's like comparing apples to oranges. PAF needs to equip itself with superior flying machines considering India is in the process of buying of French Rafale jets which have a proven ability (regardless if it's just a trainer aircraft). Pakistan should be phasing these out gradually and adopting newer technology rather than adding to the inventory.

I have no doubt about their agility and ease to operate but this technology suited us in the 90's, not anymore. It's time to adapt to changes and to introduce our pilots to the latest aircrafts.

Great deal for Pakistan. Unlike Saudis, Turkey will prefer civilian infrastructure contracts as return of favor instead of permissions to hunt endangered birds.

At least, from donated planes, they will make good scrap metal-sales revenue! Besides, what will delivery cost? If any are re-used, what about the repair costs?