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LONDON, Sept 11: The following is the edited text of President Pervez Musharraf’s interview with BBC World which was conducted by Robin Lustig:
Robin Lustig: President Musharraf,thank you very much for joining us on the programme today, we appreciate your time. We’re talking on the exact anniversary of those September 11th attacks and I wonder if I could ask you first of all how you think the relationship between the West and the Islamic world has changed in these two years. And it’s a question that’s reflected in fact in an e-mail that we’ve had from Lahore. Kashif has written to ask you: Do you believe that Pakistan’s role in the war against terrorism has reduced the differences between Islam and the West?
President Musharraf: Well certainly the change has taken place and may I also add that a major change for the worse has taken place, the relations have worsened. Therefore, the requirement certainly (is) of the world to address this issue of the worsening relations between the West and the world of the Islam as far as we are concerned. The second part of your question —— whether Pakistan’s role has bridged this gap — well, we are trying to bridge it. I think there’s a bigger issue involved which doesn’t involve Pakistan all alone but the role of the entire Islamic world and also within the entire world itself, the community of nations. It has to be addressed at a much higher and bigger level.
Lustig: There’s been a very direct reminder of those events of two years ago with the release of this new video tape, which appears to show Osama bin Laden and his right-hand man somewhere, either in Afghanistan or perhaps in Pakistan. And this tape talks very directly of you, calling you a traitor and calling on the people of Pakistan to rise up against you. How do you react to that?
Musharraf: I have to react to it very strongly. The people who know the facts on the ground, those who are involved in whatever is happening in Afghanistan, Pakistan, in our border areas, they know the realities and when I say people, various agencies, the military of the United States, forces operating in Afghanistan, the ISAF forces operating there, all of them know what Pakistan is doing and what I am doing. Such statements are given by people who are not in the real picture and they are guessing and they are just estimating whatever is happening around, they don’t have the real facts, they don’t know the real facts.
Lustig: But do you see the release of this tape as evidence that Osama bin Laden is indeed still alive ? Do you think he’s in Afghanistan or do you think he’s in Pakistan?
Musharraf: Well, this is a question which has been asked umpteen number of times. I feel that he is alive, yes, because of the various information and intelligence that has come up now. But to guess whether he’s in Pakistan or in Afghanistan, the possibility exists that he is shifting places, shifting bases on both sides.That is the reality.
Lustig: You can’t rule out the possibility that he is in fact or has been in Pakistan?
Musharraf: One can’t rule it out because certainly I cannot claim that the forces dominate every inch of territory. This is an inhospitable area which has been accessed or we have gone inside now, after a century, and therefore to presume that we have knowledge of every inch of the territory and who is in it is not on and therefore I say I cannot really be very sure whether he’s in Pakistan or the Afghan side.
Lustig: Do you think he’ll ever be caught?
Musharraf: Well, your guess will be as good or as bad as mine. We are trying our best.
Lustig: Let’s take our first call then. Uzair Aziz Dawood in on the line from Dubai, UAE. What was your question?
Uzair Aziz Dawood: Mr President, my question to you is how do you expect to bridge the ever deepening differences between the fiercely angry Islamic world and the West, whereby the Islamic world views America and the West as imperialist regimes trying to suppress Islamic propagation and values whereas the West undoubtedly considers every practising Muslim and freedom fighter as extremist?
Musharraf: Well the answer - I would like to give an answer, this is a very important question. The issue as you have said yourself is that at the moment the difference has become so large that the Islamic world thinks that the West is targeting Islam as a religion, while the West thinks that Islam as a religion is a religion of extremism and intolerance and confrontation.
My theory, as I always have been saying, is a two pronged strategy required to be executed. One of the prongs of this strategy is to be executed by the Islamic world, in that we have to crystallize our thoughts, we have to decide whether the way forward is a way of confrontation, extremism, militancy. Or the way forward is one of human development, of emancipation of the Muslim world, which is the worst off at the moment in all social indicators.
Certainly the way forward is one, as I call it, enlightened moderation. Now this is what we need to analyze in the Islamic world and adopt the course of enlightened moderation. On the other hand, the single strategy to be executed only by the Islamic world will not work. Therefore, the West has to deliver the other prong of the strategy. And the second prong that has to be delivered by the West, may I say, is that all political disputes, all of them involve Muslims unfortunately and Muslims seem to be on the receiving end of all of them, they must be resolved with justice and this justice needs to be seen to be done by the Muslim world.
And secondly, I would urge the West to assist the Muslim world in poverty alleviation and education. Because this gives rise to extremism. So therefore having addressed political disputes, poverty and education we would be addressing the core issue which leads to extremism, fundamentalism and militancy.
Lustig: Thank you for that Mr President. Our next caller is Richard Davis who’s in Lincoln, here in England.
Richard Davis : My question is: do you accept that radical Islamic parties in your country will continue to gain support as long as there are American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and how do you plan on tackling this problem?
Musharraf: We have to tackle the problem in a democratic and constitutional manner and I don’t agree with this statement that extremist militant forces will keep gaining strength as long as the foreign forces are in Afghanistan. That is not the reality. Afghanistan alone is not the issue. The issue is Iraq also now and the Palestinian issue. So therefore the issue is much larger than Afghanistan.
And I certainly believe that Pakistan is a moderate, progressive, enlightened Islamic state. The vast majority of Pakistanis believe in an enlightened vision of Islam, they are not at all extremist in their views. So therefore what you see on the television in your country probably are only the extremists which are in a very small number. Unfortunately when you see on television one gets an impression that the whole of Pakistan is extremist, that is not the reality. Anyone who comes to Pakistan and sees for himself realizes that the reality is very, very different from the perceptions that are being created on the television screens. And that is what I would urge you to come and see also. I am firmly convinced that extremism - extremist forces - will not rise in Pakistan and do not have a future in Pakistan.
Lustig: But do you say, Mr President, that there is no connection between Islamist extremism and the presence of foreign forces in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq?
Musharraf: Well certainly there is a connection which has been found also and we need to break such connections. Now if we - when we deal with Al Qaeda and we’re talking of the Taliban and we are talking of getting hold of 400-500 Al Qaeda members, this is an issue, this is a short term strategy but unless we implement or we put on the ground a long term strategy, we are not going to end up with success.
Lustig: I’d like to read you an e-mail which has come in from San Diego in California from John Jackson. He says: It has been widely reported that Al Qaeda and Taliban elements are using Pakistan as a base from which to attack coalition forces in Afghanistan. What will you do to stop this lawlessness?
Musharraf: Yes, this is an accusation being hurled against Pakistan by vested interests. Now this is absolutely untrue. One is —— or shall I say it’s partially true —- one can’t deny. I will be the last person to deny that nothing is happening in the tribal areas of our borders with Afghanistan. Certainly there are elements who may be hiding there and certainly there are abettors who sympathize with them. And we have to move against them, we are moving against them.
On our side of the border we are very effectively on ground with intelligence organizations set up, having access into the entire tribal belt of Pakistan. We can act now on intelligence which we get. Our forces are fully capable of doing that. Now to accuse Pakistan that all that is happening in Afghanistan is only from the Pakistan side is absolutely baseless.
Now, Afghanistan also has a void. In the countryside the terrain is equally inhospitable as ours. So therefore very easily people can operate, extremists can operate, from the Afghan side also. Why would there be - all of them be coming on to the Pakistan side? They can easily hide on the Afghan side.
In conclusion, I can say on both sides of the border there are places which can be utilised as sanctuaries by extremists and therefore we need to act on both sides of the border: Pakistan on our side and ISAF forces, Afghan forces, US forces on the Afghan side. And that is what we are doing.
I think we should stop accusing each other and realize what the reality on the ground is. The forces who are operating there know the realities on the ground. It’s only those who don’t know the realities cast such aspersions on Pakistan as if everything is happening from the Pakistan side. There are vested interests also. We know the enemies of Pakistan who try to project Pakistan’s actions, Pakistan’s efforts in a bad light as if we are supporting extremism here.
Lustig: Our next caller is Aristides Garcia who is in Amsterdam in the Nertherlands.
Aristides Garcia: I would like to ask you one - two questions actually. The first one has to do with the fact that as far as I remember you were the only country that recognized the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. When the US went after this government you immediately declared yourself a supporter of the war against terror. And my question is - was this a decision based on principle or a business transaction?
Musharraf: I think you must realize that nations have policies in accordance with ground realities. Now when you talk of Pakistan having recognized the Taliban - yes indeed, we had recognized the Taliban. They were in occupation of 90 per cent of Afghanistan and also they were ethnically Pashtuns. The only Pashtun representatives in Afghanistan were Taliban at that time. Now Pakistan itself ethnically has a Pashtun population here, therefore it was the strategic compulsion of Pakistan, diplomatic compulsion of Pakistan, to recognize the Taliban government in Afghanistan. And I do not at all - I’ve been talking a lot against the previous governments for all that they did against Pakistan, our own governments, but I will never say anything against their recognition of the Taliban government, that was the dictate of the time.
However, when you have diplomatic relations with a country or a regime that doesn’t mean that you are totally in consonance with their views. We have diplomatic relations with India, that doesn’t mean that we have got the best of relations with them. So when we had recognized the Taliban we knew their weaknesses, we were never in favour and we never had consonance of views even on their version of Islam.
Lustig: But the question, Mr President, is why did you change your stance at that point? The question is was it because you were offered considerable financial inducements by the United States or was it because you decided for another reason that that was the right thing to do?
Musharraf: No, there were no financial inducements offered for our policy change on Afghanistan. Certainly it was a matter of principle. We never agreed, first of all, with their views of Islam. That was an extremist view and we were never-I think the vast majority, in Pakistan were against that view. Therefore, the shift was very easy and I knew for sure that the whole of the Pakistan nation, the vast majority, will support this shift and it was proved right. It was a matter of principle and a matter of policy dictate that we followed.
Lustig: We’re going to take a call from from South Africa - Abraham Louw, calls from Sasolburg.
Abraham Louw: Mr President. I have a question but I think you’ve already answered this. My question is this: would Pakistan have allowed the US to use their country to launch an attack on Afghanistan if there was no financial benefit to Pakistan?
Musharraf: Yes, we allowed use of our air space, we allowed use of two of our air bases for only logistic support and for any aircraft in disaster - they could land there. Other than that we agreed to cooperate on the intelligence and information side. So this was the entire package that we allowed.
Now to deal with it on terms of what we get financially, we did not do that at all at that time. But may I say after that, certainly there were financial advantages that accrued to Pakistan through financial assistance from the United States, through our debt relief and debt write-off from many Western countries, especially from the Paris Club. Lustig: Our next caller is Syed Faisal Zyeem who is in Karachi, Pakistan.
Syed Faisal Zyeem: My question is concerning the sectarian killings in Pakistan. Why has the government been unable to stop them? It seems that every couple of months there will be a killing, there will be an uproar about the killings and then things get silenced again. Why is the government unable to control these killings?
Musharraf: Yes, our government is unable to control the killings - the sectarian killings. I wish one could. No country in the world can ... If a person is prepared to take the risk of killing one individual on the street no law enforcement agency in the world will be able to guarantee total safety of all its people.
But the reality that you must understand is that all the big criminals who are involved in sectarian killings have been apprehended, they are behind bars or they have been killed and eliminated. All the militant organizations have been banned and their offices sealed and they are under total check. However, one should never expect that this would mean that one - not one man will be killed anywhere in Pakistan. You must please realize the reality of the situation.
While a lot is being done, we are trying to improve our law enforcement agencies, we are trying to improve our intelligence set up. We have introduced a new anti-terrorist organization in all the provinces. We are taking measures to control and check but the population must realize that hundred per cent guarantees will not be possible anywhere in the world.
Lustig: I should say President Musharraf that this is a concern that extends far beyond Karachi. We’ve had an e-mail from Australia, Soundra Lawrence in Sydney wrote to us to say: There have been several attacks on Christians in your country, unfortunately we have not heard anything substantial done about it by your government or the security apparatus. How can you stem this? You say do you, that steps are being taken?
Musharraf: I think this is a most unfair comment that we haven’t done anything. First of all attacks on Christians in Pakistan never happened before, they only happened in roughly about one year or not even one year, six to eight months or ten months duration.They were a fallout of whatever is happening around the world — Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine.
And let me say that each and every individual who was involved has been arrested or killed. So this is a most unfair comment by the gentleman from Sydney that nothing has happened, we haven’t done anything. I don’t know whether the gentleman has asked whether in India, 3,000 Muslims were killed, are they asking anything about that? And by the way nothing has happened there. Missionaries have been killed in India also, Muslims have been killed - Sikhs have been killed. But they are the most democratic and the most secular state that the world recognizes. While here, a couple of people killed and there is a hue and cry that Pakistan is not doing anything to protect its minorities.
President Musharraf’s interview will be telecast by BBC World on Sunday at 7 pm Pakistan Time.
