If a person is raped then they should bring forward 4 witnesses that watched the act the and not oconvicted on my dna being found in the victim . If this has worked fine for the last 1400 years what is the problem now

Retarded decree by CII!

No wonder this country can't grow and keeps moving towards stone age. Can some one tell the mullahs also to stop driving in Pajero's, stop using the cell phones, stop using the electricity and use wood to cook their food vs. gas. All of these things were no existent 1400 years ago. If they want to folow their brand of Islam then they should shift to the mud build houses and leave their mansions.

Is DNA evidence legally acceptable for other crimes in Pakistan?

The Sharia is a primitive legal system that actually embodies unjust principles and does not accord with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Islam simply does not have the solutions to the problems of a complex modern world. Dawn have the guts to print the truth.

It means that DNA test are not acceptable to give Islamic punishment to the Rapist i.e. "Stoning to death (if rape done by married man or woman)". Such a harsh punishment in Islam can only be given if four people are brought forward as witness. However, DNA test can be acceptable for any other (lower or harsher) punishment that the country decides... An Islamic country will generally give "Stoning to death" if four witnesses are brought forward. Otherwise any other punishment can be given on the basis of DNA test... CII has declared that "Stoning to death" should not be given on DNA test...

Most disgusting view taken by CII. Are we still living in stone age?

My recommendation to HRCP - first have the rape declared as a crime punishable by the law of the land - get it out of the hands of mullahs and then let the state decide if DNA testing is the right way to go. By the way, CII is not a constitutional body - it can hold on to its ideology so long as the law makers, judiciary and the law enforcement organizations follow the constitution.

Wishing for their mothers and daughters to go through with this. I still can't believe my eyes reading this. It sounds as if Islam encourages systematic rape of our children. What kind of Islam are you guys practicing in Pakistan?

Ideologically and intellectually, these individuals on the CII seem to be stuck in the dark ages. Has it ever occurred to them that, based on their logic, even cell phone use, vehicle use, or use of any modern technology for that matter, are also unacceptable because they did not exist when Islam came into being. This is a classic case of how ignorance often trumps common sense and exact science in today's Pakistan.

Even more unfortunate is the cozying of PMLN to these retrogressive elements. Actually this council needs to be dissolved. But how are we going to find some forward looking people? We saw what the RO did during the election process with crude implementation of 62 and 63.

we do not want opinion of these mullas on scientific issues.

There is a difference between rape and adultery. A view has been floated that the CII is confusing the two as far as the religious aspect is concerned ...... I wonder if there is any merit in this ?

DNA is a proven science ,what are these Mullahs smoking .Come to 21st century guys do they still use camels instead of cars to travel ???

Its used as supportive evidence in the USA - not primary evidence; This is a good decision and is in congruence with international laws Z Mir MD Boston

@akhtar: These illiterate idiots call themselves

this people hv no knowledge of scince........in me view it is a terrible decision.

Why must this religion step backwards all the time? I understand science may not be well accepted in the religious circles but in MOST cases DNA is irrefutable evidence in murder and rape cases. Is there ever any non-religious research done prior to making such decisions? I am embarrassed to call myself Pakistani and Muslim. You bearded rapists are probably against DNA evidence to avoid their own doings to little boys and girls in religious schools. Mullahs disgust me to no extent, no wonder this country is headed for worse.

@akhtar: Was Islam ever out of the stone age?

The CII needs to be educated in modern jurisprudence. These are the ulemas who are apologetic when questioned about one man's witness equivalent to two women particularly when women are highly educated. The DNA test lent validity to Quranic principle as many wrongly accused victims decaying in American jails for more than twenty years were released due to DNA evidence. One-woman's evidence identifying a rape victim put them wrongly into jail cells. Any scientific evidence is Islamic as scientific principles are based on nature. The nature itself is Islamic. The DNA test helps victims and wrongly accused men equally. Its extremely accurate. The decision by CII for DNA testing as inadmissible primary evidence is gross. They should have referred the matter to the experts' committee and rendered the opinion after careful deliberations. Hope its not binding on legal system. Remember Islam is a modern religion based on word of God. Our Islamic principles stand the rigorous treatment of scientific analysis. Please do not instill your immature reasoning and its inferences into the holy body of Islam.

What do these uneducated hypocrites know about modern science? God! what are they made of that they live in the dark ages.Grow brain before you grow beards.

What on earth is CII? Never heard of them. Who are they to tell us what Islam we should follow and what is legal or illegal?

Look at the above faces.Do you think any one of them could even pronounce what DNA stands for? If you hand the fate of over 50% of nation's population to the men believing DNA could not be used as primary evidence, just quit thinking. You are already into the medieval times. While the whole world strives to progress ,our beloved country continues to surprise us!

Now that is what you call a laughing stock. I could add one more one more suggestion; if a person is found guilty, he should be given if he will write up a stamped forgiveness letter addressed to Allah. Who are we to punish anyone for his actions, it is up to Allah to forgive. The Most Merciful.

Backward thinking mullahs.. time to clean house in PK

We can now clearly see whether these are "real" ulemas or people donning the garbs of aalims! God help Pakistan!!!

The memebrs of IIC have concept of modern science. They probably do not even know what DNA is. A bad decision by Jahil ulema.

The question asked by another brother in the comments is valid that is DNA accepted in other crimes in pakistan? The situation of our Justice system is that, the ranger's guy who killed a person in karachi in 2011, still case in process. We are in 2013. What a turtle moving style justice. Nobody raise voice for these. If in a case where all video evidences are present it too late then what will happen for other cases. But nobody talk about such judicial system, Because............the name molana or islam is not attached. If name of Islam or Molana was attached to our Judicial system, i am sure every one start blaming that.....

Been bashing CII but will stop now as soon HRCP spoke. Now m gonna back CII, Don't like don't care a bit abt HRCP

I will blame the government and not these illiterate and uneducated body for such understanding of islamic laws. They have no clue and can not interpret quran-ul-hakeem with their education levels which came from madrasas with academia of hundreds of years old and have no clue where the modern islamic scholars get their vision from to understand us solve such issues. They learn to tackle such issues in context with the understanding of quran " the book full of hikmat" in light of current interpretation of scientific and factual knowledge of shria. I pray may Allah give them the wisdom and knowledge to come out of the shell and understand the real islam and it's spirit

@akhtar: Clearly, YES!

If what the CII says is true, Islam and its laws are archaic, worse than regressive, and completely irrelevant in today's age.

@Alan Olivier: The CII should be ABOLISHED, not just reconstituted. Just look at the picture and the mullahs therein. Does even one of them have even one iota of scientific knowledge?

An edict by brain-frozen persons which is not in line with the Islam bestowed upon us by Allah SWT and revealed to us by His holy prophet Muhammad PBUH in Quran Karim and thru its illustration by words,deeds & lifetime example of The prophet. CII does not accept that all natural laws (of science,physics,chemistry, biology ,genetics, etc) are ordained & created by Allah SWT ; and Quran ordains Muslims to use their brains and do "Taddabr" &"Zkr". CII instead believes laws of nature to be created by "Anglaise",thus the edict.

@akhtar: Pls. tell CII to read the comments they are getting from people! Does anyone has courage? Is CII will take the same step if one of their beloved/relative gets raped? Tell them to look at it realistically! How can they be allowed to reach such a decision on people's or women's behalf? Is Nawaz Sharif has no say in it? or is he sleeping?? Tell him decision like CII will haunt him in the long run, people are watching they are not blind after all. So STOP it now before its too late!!!

CII is completely out of touch with the advancement that medical sciences has made over the years. If a scientific evidence can help identify the rapist even if he is not awarded the punishment suggested in Sariyat, he should serve his remaining life behind the bars. If a women is a victim, she will never to able to provide witnesses. I will suggest that CII is composed besides religious scholars, scientists, doctors and retired judges

DO they believe in Qur'an verse ? (Day of Judgement) "(their hearing (ears) and their eyes and their skins will testify against them as to what they used to do.) means, all their deeds, earlier and later; not a single letter will be concealed" DNA is same thing -

What else can you expect from these self-styled keepers of the faith. Most of them probably do not know what DNA stands for. These kinds of issues should be decided by properly trained jurists based on recommendations made by scientists.

Wholeheartedly agree and endorse the statement of HRCP. The CII as exposing themselves in their pronouncement quoted in the news item have no authority in Islam. I, a devout ,observing Muslim of deep faith ,now,feel that it was unfortunate that the constitution of Pakistan allowed such a group of un-islamic persons to be seated as the authority on Islam; their only qualification appears to be their stance that Science & Technology and the laws of nature ( Physics,Chemistry, Genetics,Biology,etc etc ) all are the fabrication of "Anglaise". They should be told that Allah created everything ,these laws of nature on which the universe operates ,besides the hardware.If they cannot understand this fact they need to study Quran more deeply.

Who on earth will rap and call for four witness to watch, We do not live in medial ages. DNA is the 100% positive answer. But if we want to promote rap we should reject DNA. Custodian of law you have daughters sisters.

Everything about these guys is regressive except for their beards which continue to be progressive in size.

infact its HRCP which needs to be reconstituted. it has to be aligned with the rights, liberties and limitation as enunciated by islam. lending DNA test a conclusive evidence status has its own vulnerabilities, which HRCP doesnt like to see.

Keep the religion OUTSIDE .. YOUR COUNTRY WILL BE FINE

@akhtar: How does DNA prove rape? It proves they had sex, not necessarily there was rape.

CII has only declared that DNA cant be taken as PRIMARY evidence in rape cases, however it can be taken as supportive evidence and I don't find any problem here. Its up to the investigation authorities to take supportive evidence as Primary one as it happens in may other cases. Moreover, HRCP does not qualify for such a critique on CII unless they have sufficient knowledge of religious education, which they don't presumably have.

What a bunch of clowns.

"Ideaologists" who may know the letter but are ignorant of the spirit of the faith they profess.

Do they even know what DNA is? On what basis and how can they deny the science?

DNA cannot differentiate between willingness and force, so of course other evidence is necessary.

These Human right people will jump in side of rapist if same Council suggest public execution of rapists in Pakistan to stop violence against women. So there concerns always there.......

Dont comment if you dnt have knowledge about the logic behind the Islamic Laws, Islamic rules are not as easy that you judge from your common sense, it is diveine laws as revealed on Prophet Muhammad SAWW by manufacturer of Human that is one and only ALLAAH

Laws of Islam is not a man made law. So we should have a deeper knowledge of Islam and pray to almighty to understand it what ever may be the issue.

@Sajjad: You means no consideration of the voice of rape victim

DNA test are always used as supporting evidence in case of rape, in almost all countries. DNA tests can ONLY confirm if sexual intercourse has taken place with a particular man or not, with high precision. However, DNA test can not tell if there was a consent involved or not (for the intercourse). The most important evidence (primary evidence) is the evidence of consent, in a rape case.

@Zafar Abbas: Do u know what DNA is. CAn a DNA test confirm the presence of consent for sexual intercourse??

HRCP is an anti Islam group to misguide the masses

Education is our enemy. Ignorance is bliss. This bunch must have cheered at the murder of Professor Azfar Rizvi. As long as you can preach ignorance, you can control the people.

It shows utter disregard to society approach to issue, Time is not far when society will show its utter disregard for stubborn clergy and declare and treat them irrelevant.

@Sajjad: When, for example, a 56 year old religious leader has sex with a 9 year old prepubescent child that is still playing with dolls, the DNA test confirm if the man had sex with chiild. If he did then both sex and rape are proven. When an adult has sex with a minor it is rape, no questions asked. If the sex is between adults, that is older than 18 years, then other means are needed, such presence of bruises on the girl, testimony in a court of law etc. But a DNA test is essential and should be made mandatory.

Given rape is almost 100% performed by men in Pak. and the council is 100% made of men who have not experienced rape. This decision entirely makes sense. It is a wrong decision but it makes sense. Women are nothing to these men because they do not know what it is to be a woman in Pak.

It seems members of CII have had some practical training themselves on the subject.

if the holy, pious primary evidence is so important, where is the need for the secondary-tertiary DNA SheNA kind of western conspiracies?

@illawarrior: Very well explained sir. The masses don't have brains to think about that.

@akhtar: DNA cannot differentiate between willingness and force, so of course other evidence is necessary. That is why it is not accepted as primary evidence.

the best way is to combine Islam with science because Islam and science usually are on the same page. DNA tests were not available then so Muslims used to have other means to determine the crime but now we have the technology so lets make use of it. also the CII is not disregarding DNA test its just saying it should not be the primary evidence which makes sense because a DNA test cannot proof the consent of the victim.

Question is what is Islamic procedure to prove rape? Clearly DNA alone does not prove rape: it could be consensual sex as well. However demanding 4 witnesses is also mostly impractical. So CII is right in that DNA only acts as supporting evidence but other evidence proving a scuffle, torture is also required along the modern lines. I am interested in knowing what is Islamic provision in that?

DNA only proves that sexual fluids have been exchanged. It does not prove that a crime has been committed without other supporting evidence of coercion.

If DNA is taken primary evidence then consent will become a secondary matter, I think Cll has taken that into consideration & quite appropriately to prevent misuse & black mails; ulema bashing seems fashionable with the western minded

These Mullahs leave no chance to bring up their medieval ideas to put the society in backtrack. In west, DNA is exonerating people wrongfully imprisoned many years ago. In Pakistan, where criminals are difficult to apprehend, our religious clergies making it even more harder to prove the crime. God bless Pakistan.

The fault is not so much with these maulvis (as it is their choice to live in stone age), but the general Pakistani public, which continues its fantasy with religion and balks at any idea of separation of religion from state machinery. You make these maulvis in charge, and they will drag you back in time with them, Don't complain

The CII should have independently thinking women members to start with. How can a body that entirely consists of male members take decisions affecting women even without listening to their representatives?

DNA evidence is used to ID an individual whether it's rape, murder, or any other case. It does not solve a case. It helps solve a case. So, let's not confuse the issue. There are different types of evidence (direct, circumstantial, etc) and rules of evidence that need to be followed in a court of law. Without a thorough comprehension of court proceeding and due process of law, we are prone to spreading misinformation. Having said that, it's time to take DNA evidence more seriously and re-evaluate the antiquated law of witnesses. We should use technology to our advantage. I know Muhammad rode a camel and Jesus rode a donkey. But if they were alive today, they would most likely be driving a car.

i fully agree with HRCP and they were too polite in their comments.The mullahs who dont accept DNA evidence are people from time bygone.I am a muslim but these idiots make our religion look old and out dated.These mullahs are JAHIL and IGNORANT who have no knowledge of science and its developments made in medicine and other disciplines during the last few centuries(unfortunately hardly any made by muslims).T he new government shud disband this silly mullah controlled organization as soon as possible.

@Zafar Abbas: These Mullahs think that DNA means "Does Not Apply". May be if someone explain to them what it really means, they might start thinking differently.

Islam teaches us to act upon a matter unless and untill u ve some tangible evidences for it............

3 good points (above) by Pervez, Zulfiqar and Sajjad. I will repeat it for summary. (1). Its used as supportive evidence in the USA - not primary evidence; This is a good decision and is in congruence with international laws. (2). There is a difference between rape and adultery. A view has been floated that the CII is confusing the two as far as the religious aspect is concerned ...... I wonder if there is any merit in this ? (3). How does DNA prove rape? It proves they had sex, not necessarily there was rape. .

Rape is a crime both in the eyes of Islam as well generally accepted moral values. DNA itself does not prove if the sex was consensual or forced (e.g. Rape). Physical and psychological condition of victim plus other criminal investigation would prove the crime (or not). CII is, therefore, correct that DNA test should be used a supportive evidence. However, CII should have included DNA test as factor and not trying to reject it, Their announcement was not much supportive of DNA test among the proofs for the crime.

after reading this article there is a reason why my Bengali teacher in East London Mosque "Don't be offended David as you are a Pakistani citizen, but Islam in Pakistan do not exist. They have their own version of everything "

after reading this article there is a reason why my Bengali teacher in East London Mosque "Don't be offended David as you are a Pakistani citizen, but Islam in Pakistan do not exist. They have their own version of everything "

CII judges should understand that democracy cannot be run on Islamic ideology. If it is run on Islamic ideology, it will not be democracy. Hope Mr. Nawaz Sharif makes a good decision.

@Alan Olivier: Yes - The answer is yes.

A feudal mindset in its death throes, trying to keep suppression as part of it's modus operandi, via the clergy. Keep men from accounting for their actions. In the mean time parade the women naked on the streets of villages or sell them into marriage to a 70-year old. The picture shows men from the 12th century.

@Aj bUtt: Why has he not done so before. Either he is not there, in which case Islam is a lie, or he does not care, in which case Islam is a lie.

In Islamic sharia ,there should be conservative view instead of liberal to obtain the 100% results from Islamic philosophy particularly in the cases of tazeerat and punishments instead of compromising on technical grounds ,the C I I reservations are justified for not accepting the D N A results out rightly, however it should has been subject to all just and authentications of results in all respects . It is correct that the results of un certified laboratories like Pakistanis and many others in third word, where bribe,fraud ,tempering the results ,and poor juditial system is practiced must not be relied upon ,IT is also a hard fact that there are so many countries and institution where the teaching of islam are practiced and no such deviation from truth and honesty is noticed if such laboratories of modern word with 0%error and 100%accuracy, with all strict compliance of S O Ps and maintaining all due standards which could be relied upon and never ever indulged in tempering and fabricating the test results and their findings are accepted in all other pathological,medical and legal matters at all international forums and the results were never ever challanged or proved to be incorrect and could not be challenged in any court of law of the word and/ or recognized universally and internationally,should be reconsideredand C I I findings should be revisited ,it would have been more appropriate to publish questionnaire and comments from all religions and school of thoughts would have been invited before issuing final verdict on D N A test .By doing this exercise if it would have been established as disputed issue ,it could be disputed by C I I too,if it is unanimously agreed by medical scientists,chemists ,lawyers and many recognized Islamic scholars and religion and medical institutions of the word the comments of C I I would have been passed in the light of these findings ,it is sample to say that C I I should not pass such opinions in limited scope and with out going into depth ,it was also the precedent of Pakistan sharia councils to consults Islamic scholars in such sensitive issues in past.this humble submission is to up hold the Islamic teachings ,to encourage thought process and to come up with unique and most acceptable Islamic version on such complected and sensitive modern issue of the word.