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How affluent are the Pakistani-Americans?

Published May 24, 2012 12:45pm


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– Illustration by Eefa Khalid/

Last week, I read Dr Murtaza Haider’s post on the poverty of Pakistani-Canadians with great interest.

As I was barraged by one startling statistic after the other – 44 per cent below the poverty line, nearly 50 per cent who don’t own homes, almost a quarter never having been in the workforce – I couldn’t help but think how drastically different this story was from that of Pakistani-Americans, who are generally regarded as a well-off diaspora.

Indeed, I know of no low-income area or slum in the United States populated predominantly by people of Pakistani origin, and I have never heard of a Pakistani-American homeless person. When one thinks of this community, the words most often coming to mind are prosperous and philanthropic.

Evidence gives credence to these perceptions. According to a 2011 report by the Asian American Center for Advancing Justice (AACAJ), which draws on data from the 2010 US Census and other US government sources, the median household income of Pakistani-American families is nearly $63,000. This is considerably higher than the figure for families in America on the whole ($51,369). Additionally, as I have pointed out previously, the most common jobs of Pakistani-Americans include doctors, accountants, and financial analysts, and 55 per cent hold at least a bachelor’s degree (this latter figure is only 28 per cent across the US population on the whole).

Broadly speaking, Pakistani-Americans appear to be economically secure and their positive experiences likely compel them to invite friends and family back in Pakistan to join them in America. Consider that Pakistani-Americans are the second-fastest-growing Asian-American ethnic group – their numbers more than doubled from 2000 to 2010, soaring from 204,309 to 409,163.

Yet, this isn’t the full story.

Dig a bit deeper into the AACAJ report, and you will come across some troubling data. Fifteen per cent of Pakistani-Americans fall below the poverty line – which happens to be the rate for the American population on the whole. Similarly, unemployment rates for the diaspora – 8 per cent (for those aged 16 and older) – reflect the rate for the total US population. On several measures, Pakistani-Americans are considerably worse off than the general population. Only 55 per cent own homes, compared to the nationwide figure of 66 per cent. Their per capita income is about $24,700, compared to $27,100 for the total population. And 23 per cent of Pakistani-Americans have no health insurance – which ties them with Bangladeshi-Americans for the highest percentage of any Asian-American ethnic group. This is significantly higher than the 15 per cent national figure (though Gallup polls suggest this figure has risen to 17 per cent in the last few months).

What should we make of this? On the one hand, many members of any immigrant group will face challenges as they adjust to their new home country. While quite a few Pakistani-Americans were born in the United States, the majority – about 65 per cent – were not. Therefore, for most of the community, the adjustment period is very much in the present.

Additionally, one can’t forget about all those blue-collar Pakistani-American workers, and particularly the taxicab drivers. According to US Census figures, “drivers and other transportation workers” constitute the third most common profession of Pakistani-Americans. In the words of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance, a union that represents cab drivers in New York City (where Pakistanis are heavily represented), employees have not received raises since 2004, “and they now earn below both the NY state minimum wage for a 12-hour shift and a NYC Living Wage (by 40 per cent).”

Ultimately, the most accurate depiction of Pakistani-Americans is one that dispenses with all the data and simply accepts it for what it is: a diverse diaspora that is anything but a monolith. It ranges from hourly wage workers to physicians, academics, and a growing number of state legislators and mayors; from Washington insider Huma Abedin (a close adviser to Hillary Clinton) to race-car driver Nur Ali (the first Pakistani to serve in this profession); from the eloquent writer Daniyal Mueenuddin to the notorious businessman Mansoor Ijaz; and from those who promote interfaith dialogue (American University professor Akbar Ahmed) to the occasional militant (Faisal Shahzad, the man accused of having unsuccessfully attempted to blow up Times Square).

I’m willing to bet that behind the troubling figures and snapshots that Dr Haider presents of Pakistani-Canadians, there lies a similarly nuanced and complex portrait of the diaspora in Canada – one that features its share of good news and success stories. Just as affluence is only one of various parts of the Pakistani-American story, poverty is likely only one of various aspects of the Pakistani-Canadian experience.

Michael Kugelman is the program associate for South Asia at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington, DC. You can reach him at and follow him on Twitter: @michaelkugelman

The views expressed by this blogger and in the following reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of the Dawn Media Group.


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Michael Kugelman is deputy director of the Asia Program and senior associate for South Asia at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington, DC. He can be reached at or on Twitter @michaelkugelman

The views expressed by this writer and commenters below do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of the Dawn Media Group.

Comments (199) Closed

BRR May 24, 2012 01:19pm
A "me-too" article, which does not have any value-add.
Vasan May 24, 2012 01:37pm
It is nothing to with ethnicity. It is a question of numbers. Any poor country in the world will have poverty stricken people dying to leave, and it will also have well-qualified people dying to leave. The country that lets them come in chooses to let people in selectively. In the US and Canada, since immigration opened up in the 60s people who were coming in were usually very well qualified or students at universities. There was careful monitoring of the Visas. In the last twenty years, immigration of relatives of the people who first came in, and illegal immigration, from these countries has increased. This is how most of the poor, unqualified people manage to get in. Which is what has happened in Canada and is fast happening in the USA also. As for the slums the author seeks, I can show him a few in Italy and France. Some places in the US are fast approaching that - come to California for a tour.
Sam May 24, 2012 01:44pm
I think the author has not read the article of "Dr Haider" properly. He has written about Pakistani-Americans not about Canadians. He has given a comparison report among different Asian sub continent.
Suhail Ahmad May 24, 2012 01:44pm
The data from Canada Revenue Service that Murtaza Haider had used in his analysis was wrong on many accounts: (1) It was badly dated (2005), (2) Pakistanis generally have their own businesses, mostly small businesses, and work on cash rather than formal channels, and (3) till 2009, Pakistanis did not even know that their nationality can be incorrectly identified on the basis of the language they speak. So, for example, if you identified Punjabi as your mother tongue, the nationality attributed to you was Indian due Punjabi Sikh ethnic group. This incorrection may still be there, but to a much less extent. I am afraid that at least the component of working on cash rather than banking channels may be existing in the US data as well.
Manas May 24, 2012 01:45pm
No matter what the Pakistanis will love to hate U.S. (till they get a resident visa that is) !
Abbas May 24, 2012 02:26pm
Pakistani American community is in pretty good shape. More women's participation in the workforce would improve their economics but those are personal decisions. A diversification from the usual doctor, engineer, IT or business school degrees could also help.
baba May 24, 2012 02:30pm
I met a Pakistani-American homeless once last year in downtown Baltimore. I couldn't believe my eyes and was very sad. He was originally from Karachi and had been kicked out of a residency program for falsifying his degree.
Kamran May 24, 2012 02:31pm
You missed NFL team owner Shahid Khan - a quintessential immigrant success story of hardwork being rewarded. At the end of the day, despite what people say, north america remains the most egalitarian society.
Amit-Atlanta-USA May 24, 2012 02:33pm
The fact of the matter is there hasn't been any studies exclusively focusing on Pakistani Americans unlike in Canada, or the UK. But if we refer to the PEW study on progress based on religious groups, Jews and Hindus come out on top both in terms of earnings with over 45% of their households making over US $100,000 while the corresponding figure for Muslims was just 14%. In terms of educational achievements while again nearly 44% of Indians, and 35% of Jews had a post-graduate degree, only 6% of Muslims had such qualifications. In the UK the figures from the govt. statistical institute shows that even given similar social background a Muslim Indian is 3 times as likely to be unemployed as a Hindu Indian. No wonder given all these glaring stats, the left leaning, NYT had published two eye-opening articles titled "IS RELIGION YOUR FINANCIAL DESTINY" and "ISLAM ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF THE WELFARE STATE".
TXEngr87 May 24, 2012 02:37pm
I am a Pakistani-American (born in USA, parents came from Pakistan) and for the most part I'd say the Pakistani-American community is one of the more affluent groups in the country. But there is definitely an incidence of poverty, specifically among the newer arrivals. My family has been here for 30+ years, and the other Pakistanis who have been here for a while, let's say 15+ years, tend to be better off than the newer arrivals. I think previously the immigrants were better educated and assimilated better, whereas nowadays the immigrants are more working class and quite a bit more conservative, hence they don't assimilate as easily. Just an observation from being born and raised in the States.
Ahmad May 24, 2012 02:37pm
Pakistanis can do better if they attend ivy league colleges. We have not yet understood the power of ivy league colleges. Look around, Pakistanis the people in bsiness and government. They are all graduates of those universities.
Anwar Iqbal May 24, 2012 02:42pm
Michael: You will be accused of being pro-Pakistan. And this a crime the CIA and the Pentagon may forgive but some Pakistanis do not. They love self-hate. So be careful. You must write another article, rejecting all that you say in this. If you need help in denigrating Pakistan, call me. You know, it takes me only 20 minutes to reach your work place. Anwar
I.Akram May 24, 2012 02:44pm
..and the UK, which has almost one million British-Pakistani?
mohsin May 24, 2012 03:32pm
walk around Sydney, Toronto or LA and you will notice the comfort of your skin in LA most of all. This is because american society accepts immigrants and believes that it was who they were and thats what gonna change the face unlike Canadian and Australian society where masses in general are still accepting this immigration trend. All of my friends who moved to US were able to find white collar jobs with their foreign degrees and work experience (both earned outside US) unlike their Canadian and Australian counterparts who landed in blue collar catogory.
Wasim Farooqi May 24, 2012 03:37pm
I have lived in Canada for sixteen years and now living in US for next sixteen years, I can tell by my own experience that the life of Pakistani American is far better than the ones living in Canada. Some of the reason why Pakistani American are prosperous are better job opportunities, lower cost of living, lower housing cost and melting pot strategy. I believe United States of America is the best country for all compare to any country on the earth
Sam May 24, 2012 01:44pm
I think the author has not read the article of "Dr Haider" properly. He has written about Pakistani-Americans not about Canadians. He has given a comparison report among different Asian sub continent.
Ahmed May 24, 2012 04:54pm
Thanks Dr. Saab for really enlightening us. I do however feel that there would be a number of Pakistan in Engineering and IT, something that you did not highlight. It always feels great to be noticed by a non-Pakistani in a neutral or positive manner. You have summed it up really well.
Kamran Shaikh May 24, 2012 05:31pm
Good job Michael for taking such a prompt action, I read the Canada report of Pakistani's and was kind of depressed for finding the difference between what I thought of my community living in North America versus the reality. It is good to know that in USA things are better and hopefully would improve further as we tend to shine in a competetive free market economy where you are limited only by your own imagination.
@hasanarshad_ May 24, 2012 05:37pm
Pakistanis family income may increase many folds if we allow our ladies to work
SZee May 24, 2012 05:53pm
Good information. Thanks for a brief and concise review. Long way to go. One more conclusion that we can derive is the fact that if given an opportunity the people of Pakistan can thrive and do better than the other masses and ethnic groups. Smart, sharp people in need of direction at home and abroad. One question would be around the statistic of the Pakistani-American population below the poverty line. What is the percentage of American born Pakistanis in that group? Is there a ramp up ime for new immigrants and get above that line?
Tariq khan May 24, 2012 05:54pm
Michael, what is the source of your statistics . The last I completed the census questionare I donot remember a section for Pakistani origin to be documented. If you are counting the #s of people who somehow identified themselves in the Other category than you will be missing some who did not specify the other category as pakistani or who entered their race as white or asian
atif May 24, 2012 06:08pm
an interesting article that helps us ponder on the imprudence.
Anwar Hakam May 24, 2012 06:17pm
I agree that a sizeable number of Pakistani Americans are engaged in professions you have listed, i.e. doctors, accountants and financial analysts. Most individuals in these occupations do phenomenally well, thus pushing up the median income for this group to unreal levels. But lets’ not forget that the vast majority of Pakistani Americans are engaged in small businesses in retail, construction and transportation. And regardless of whether they are employed or working as self-employed business owners, the general trend is not to document their real income. Usually the purpose is to avoid taxes and also to remain eligible for income based state sponsored health care services. But what happens is that by doing so they indirectly disqualify themselves for mortgage programs and homeownership. There are two more considerations one must not ignore. One is that most of the children born to the people of Pakistani origin do not classify themselves as Pakistani Americans, and naturally so. Subsequently, they, and they comprise a significantly large number, become part and parcel of the general population in statistical terms. This group is brought up and educated here and, with some exceptions, make a lot more money than their parents. Their income seldom become part of the statistics we have under consideration. The second factor that must not be overlooked is the general attitude of lower income Pakistani Americans. Instead of trying to assimilate themselves into their host society they generally tend to recreate their little Chichawatni and Gujrat in places of their abode. Moreover, in big cities like New York, Chicago, Houston. Baltimore, Washington D.C. and others they live in neighborhoods where homeownership is usually not a priority for most inhabitants to begin with.
Kamal May 24, 2012 06:19pm
I once saw some statistics where Indians, Chinese, and Pakistanis were on top of the list in terms of per-capita income in the U.S. More than the white Americans. As for the cultural assimilation problems that Pakistanis face in Canada, I do believe that the report read "too much" into some points and then certain others were blown out of proportion and put them in the wrong context. I am a Pakistani-American and have faced such issues in earlier years but it wasn't because our families didn't want to integrate, it was just seen more as a distraction from what we originally came here to do and that was to go to colleges and make a better life.
Anil May 24, 2012 06:20pm
Yaaaawn. Enough of these expatriates. Let us take care of our true pakistani/indians living in subcontinent.
allaisa May 24, 2012 06:21pm
Obviously the writer has not read Murtaza Haiders's Dollars and Sense of American Desis.
Ahsan Naeem May 24, 2012 06:28pm
A very interesting and balanced analysis presented by the writer. The article sparked a sense of hope in a troubled heart of a troubled Pakistani patriot. It's so unfortunate to see that so many negative aspects of the Pakistani society are hilighted everyday, mostly by our own fellow citizens, that the very bright and hopeful side of Pakistan gets veiled out! Articles such as this, not even written by a Pakistani, depicting the true and fair picture of a Pakistani society is what this world and the nation needs!
allaisa May 24, 2012 09:17pm
Obviously the writer has not read Murtaza Haiders's Dollars and Sense of American Desis.
Zain May 24, 2012 06:34pm
Good analysis Mr. Kugelman. I happen to be one of those Pakistani Americans. I thank God for everything. America still is the land of the opportunity, for those who are willing to put an Honest's day's work. You can definately carve out a bright future for yourself here. I have experience of living both in Pakistan, (till age of 12) and in U.S. where I got most of my education.
Zain May 24, 2012 06:34pm
The biggest and most imortant difference between U.S. and Pakistan is that in U.S. there is NO VIP culture for the 99%. Even if you are a son/daughter of a Congressman, a millionaire, a top Surgeon, or a top businessman, you will be treated the same way, as a blue collar worker, in terms of when you are seeking job (you have to prove that you have what it takes, no bribes work here), when you get pulled over for traffic or any civil infraction, when are screened at the Airports. Majority of people drive their own cars, or prepare their own food at home, take care of their own lawns, extremely few Celebrities, athletes, have Cheufer Drivers, cooks, etc. But in Pakistan, even an mid level Grade 16th 17th, and mid level TV personalities, Lowly Politicians, other officer category think he/she is a celebrity and needs to be treated like a VIP.
Shak May 24, 2012 06:42pm
Just a few clarifications on the analysis above "Only 55 per cent own homes, compared to the nationwide figure of 66 per cent. " That's because most of Pakistanis live in large metropolitan areas and houses are expensive. Take Brooklyn, NY the largest pakistani concentration in US, average house costs around 500k while typical american house costs 200k. "Their per capita income is about $24,700, compared to $27,100 for the total population." The per capita reported income is also mis-leading, my cousin makes around 80k driving a cab but after deducting all expenses etc he reports taxable income of 25k. My other relatives work in construction and other cash businesses where correct income is not reported. Almost every Pakistani family that has been in the US for 3 or more years is pretty well off. Everyone I know works because there are a lot of jobs and not much discrimination and there is very little govt wellfare. Even women from "conservative" section of the population work if needed. I know many families that moved from US to canada due to Visa issues and they all complain about lack of job opportunities.
Ashar May 24, 2012 06:56pm
Well written and said Michael. Couldn't agree more. The diversity of the Pakistani-American diaspora is as complex and as varied as any other nationality in the US or even more. They can't be labled or confined to a single identity. There are many instances and examples of businessmen, doctors, engineers, technology geeks, actors, comedians, factory workers, cab drivers, religious schollars, philanthropists, academics, students and the lone terrorists who take all the attention away from everyone else in the group!
Muhammad May 24, 2012 07:18pm
A lovely piece. Thanks for giving a balanced analysis.
Haq Parast May 24, 2012 07:41pm
I think the problem Pakistanis are facing is that they can not invest in back home because of security situation. Chinese and Indians they made their countries with money and expertise much greater countries in the world.
Ali Hamid May 24, 2012 07:51pm
Very Well explained. I have following all the articles related to this issue. Being an expatriate, I was just wondering how situation could be that bad for Pakistanis. I know many Pakistanis who are doing excellent in all walks of life in foreign countries. Many of them are doctors, engineers and accountants in well reputed organizations. It could be true that they are lagging behind to their Indian counterparts as Indians have their large social circle but it does not mean that Pakistanis are totally unable to cope with the situation. Moreover, I have many Indian friends who are also struggling alongside with Pakistanis and other immigrants to find a good respectable white collar job. Indians are also facing the same problems and issues as anybody else does. Many Indians also help Pakistanis in finding jobs and vice a versa so large social circle can also be negated up to some extent as. Overall everybody is doing great regardless of their nationalities except those who are lazy and don’t want to do anything.
dont-care May 24, 2012 08:25pm
This is first article that I have come across that does not compare the Pakistani stats to Indian. See, the numbers can speak for themselves and you don't have invent worse Indian stats to feel good. Pakistan can exists with or without India.
usman May 25, 2012 03:30am
Dr Haider has already written about poverty aspects of the Pakistani-Canadian experience.
Gagan May 24, 2012 09:55pm
There is a difference my friend. Pakistani Americans are mainly those Pakistanis who were and are well off in Pakistan itself. They went to US for studies, because their parents could afford that and later got settled there in US in good jobs. Same is true for any other foreign ethinic community in USA. 35% doctors in USA are Indian-American. Indian-American is one of the richest community in USA. Agsin the reason is, top rated cream in terms of education and finance could reach US.
Khalid Latif May 24, 2012 11:28pm
USA offers more opportunities and welcome new people. Many people have been successful in USA and it is because of this reason it is called the land of opportunities. On the other hand Canadian has been more conservatives. The struggle for the new comer to get in job market of Canada is very hard. Even local graduates with Phd or master’s from Canadian universities but immigrants find it hard to find job. This is one of the factors which is reason for poverty in a Pakistani community. But USA has always accepted the brilliant and talented people. Other aspect of integration with in Canada. The Canadian conservative approach has also reflected in their immigration policy. Canada even you become a citizen of Canada one still struggle to sponsor its wife or parents to Canada. As a Canadian citizen if you want to sponsor you wife to Canada now it takes 26 months for whole process. But USA have always welcome and integrated the community and acted positively in uniting families of new comers.
Baba Sidni May 24, 2012 11:45pm
I agree 100%. The views given in Dr Murtaza Haider’s post are just a sample, and most probably distorted. I have lived in the USA myself, and can clearly see that average Pakistani Americans are well off and well settled, otherwise why would they consider sponsoring their loved one to immigrate as well. If they consider the life in Pakistan to be much better, than in USA, then what is stopping them to come back. Is it security (which can be had with some money to spend), is it electricity (again could be bought by some money), Jobs for the kids (again needs some money), food (readily available for those with money), or shame, who would consider shame to be a bigger motivating factor than the hunger of their kids? Beats me.
Smith May 25, 2012 12:31am
Among all western countries, Pakistanis is USA are enjoying excellent professional jobs and very good salaries.There are doctors who marry celebrities like Reema Khan.Unlike other western countries USA is not a welfare state, it has the lowest inflation and tax rate among all western countries.With current fears of EU breaking up and Greece/Spain leaving EU.The future of EU will be just like USSR. USA have direct competition with China and its a capitalist country (unlike a welfare state) therefore Americans and Pakistani/Americans are extremely hardworking.
Zafar May 25, 2012 11:47am
I for one came back to Pakistan with my wife back in 1991 after after living in USA for 3 years. I was on H-1 and going was great. It was a risk, I took. NO REGRETS . In fact me & my family are quite settled now after going through troubled waters. The point I want to make is that Pakistani immigrants to USA are generally educated and fall in the 'haves' category, so the chances of remaining in this category would still be quite high if they choose to come back to Pakistan .Back in 2002 I visited USA with my family for vacations. I again got an opportunity. I talked to my friend a Pakistani-American. He gave me a very candid reply 'If you are earning Rs 75,000/= per month (at that time) and you have a house and a decent car then you should not bother'. Me & my wife took that advice. I don't want to sound 'talking big' but it's all about hanging in there in early stages of your work life and then you could be alright. I know many would disagree but that is how I feel.
Adil Baloch May 25, 2012 01:32am
It really is very nice to see someone comapring Doctors with Accountants and Financial Analysts directly:) The only problem is that it is in terms of economic statuses. While an apoology is in place to the Engineers of Pakistani origin for the oversight, being an Accountant of pakistani origins myself, I'm not complaining at all:):) So, are we trying to compare Pakistanis on two sides of the border in terms of their economic statuses? __I don't think we can compare us with each other even back home! We have a puny middle class, if that, in Pakistan. When we migrate to US, Canada and/or Timbaktu for that matter we migrate with that class intact. Some grow out and up as exceptions. Some continue to be "comfortably rich", some continue to be part of the middle class and some stay as part of the "not so privilliged" class, thus maintaining the status quo. I'm just being realistic. __I understand, the writer of this post and the writer of the post being referenced on top of this post are doing the same thing as I mentioned in few preceding sentences. __BUT, I still don't see the point being made here? Could someone help?__Regards,:):):)A Certified Public Accountant in MD, USA
Omer May 25, 2012 03:46am
Having lived in Canada and US , I would say that Pakistani-Americans are much better off than Pakistani-Canadians. This can be attributed to the fact that the Canadian market is very small and the country is unable to support the large influx of immigrants that come in every year. I have met a lot of PhD cab drivers in Toronto meanwhile its a different story when I was living on both the East and West coast in USA.
annas May 25, 2012 03:51am
I am really impressed and happy to see the better state of affairs of Pakistanis in America.
farooq May 25, 2012 03:56am
very nicely written. Dr Haider's article was rather condescending and I think a false depiction of the reality. Furthermore the data that he presented could not be verified by Stats Canada.
Anwar Amjad May 25, 2012 04:01am
Thank you Michael for a very informative profile of the Pakistani community in the US.
Ajaya K Dutt May 25, 2012 04:24am
How does this compare with Indian Americans? In 2007, the median income of households headed by an Indian American was approximately $83,000, compared with $61,000 for East Asians and $55,000 for whites. About 69% of Indian Americans age 25 and over have four-year college degrees, rates of 51% and 30% is for East Asians and whites. ( Why there is such a difference whereas both the communities have same background?
Parineet May 25, 2012 05:16am
No matter what you state - The Pakistanis will love to hate U.S. (till they get a resident visa ) !
Mubeen Alum May 25, 2012 06:56am
This So true, was about to write this, till i seen your comment.! :)
Aviratam May 25, 2012 07:03am
@Gagan Yes, there has been "elite" migration from both India and Pakistan to the United States; Indians more because of IIT graduates and so on. The % of doctors of Indian origin is not 35% as you state, but between 4-5%. But since many children of doctors follow their parents profession, it is estimated that by 2020, about 6-7% of all doctors would be of Indian origin.
Ayaz May 25, 2012 07:09am
Couple of things. At least half, if not more, Pakistanis in america would not put down their origin in a census. Anyways who is familiar with the community would know exactly what I am talking about. In Canada, Pakistanis professionals have been recruited in their latter years. They do not assimilate well in the job market. Hence, their incomes are low. However, their wealth is substantial. They bring large capital from Pakistan upon immigrating and many have reaped great gains by Canada's phenomenal real estate market. In Mississauga, there are approx hundred thousand Pakistanis worth close to half million dollars.
Farhan May 25, 2012 07:24am
As bulk of Pakistanis are doing kind of jobs where income has to be self declared versus Indians who are working in white collar companies; they are probably not declaring their income properly to save taxes. That is why over all data is distorted and so does the conclusions
r Ahmad May 25, 2012 07:29am
First the number of Pakistanis stated are very low. In 2005, a study by Pakistani embassy had stated there to be 7 lakh pakistanis in USA then. The figure is probably closer to a million given that many pakistanis do not identify Pakistan as their source country in U.S. in general, let alone in a survey where they can easily not answer this. Second, besides the fact that the data in Mr Murtaza's article is questionable, Pakistanis in Canada do have lower incomes as they immigrate later in life and find it difficult to assimilate. However, they are generally wealthy as they bring their assets from Pakistan and purchase houses in Canada. The housing sector in Canada has done extremely well. It would not be an overstatement to say that close to hundred thousand pakistanis, in a place like mississauga, have gained over quarter of a million dollars over last few years bringing their net worth considerably up.
Bruce May 25, 2012 07:53am
You do realize that there are only around 400,000 Pakistanis in America, compared to 2 million Indians, 3.6 million Chinese,3.4 million Filipinos,1.7 million Koreans and 1.6 million Japanese. About 15,000 of Pakistani-Americans are Doctors compare that to 35,000 Indian doctors in America so PROPORTIONALLY there are more Pakistani doctors than Indian in America. If you do the math 3.75% of Pakistani-Americans are doctors compared to 1.75% Indian-American doctors. There might be more Indian doctors in number, but proportionally less than Pakistani doctors.
irfan elahi May 25, 2012 08:25am
i grew up in vancouver, canada and i can tell you that pakistani canadians here are very well established . there are so many multi-millionares including in my family. the author , in this article is mentioning about pakistani canadians below poverty line they arrived in canada some time in mid 2000's and they include cab drivers , 7-eleven workers and those pakistani families who dont work and live on welfare money means my money.the old pakistani famiies are well esablished with government jobs and multi million dollar buisness. pakistanis need to get education here and than find a suitable job or else they could live below poverty line and live on my money. work education and work not sitting at home with ten kids.
ivrubel May 25, 2012 08:39am
Yess.....totally agree! !!!
truth bites May 25, 2012 08:55am
This is very wrong myth, I think almost all of Pakistani apperciate Americans and their success. Like many other democratic people around the world they dont like the foreign policy of USA nothing else.
truth bites May 25, 2012 08:56am
He has written on both in two separate articles!
Nav May 25, 2012 09:49am
Two things: 1) Canada has an open immigration policy while the US does not. This makes everyone line up for what they think is a better lifestyle. I met many taxi drivers in Canada--Sikhs and Pakistanis--who had apparently jumped on the immigration bandwagon, burned their boats and were trapped. I'll never forget a young Pakistani man who drove his taxi around loudly playing Punjabi sufi music which was full of angst. 2) Canadian propaganda presents Canadians as morally superior to and friendlier than Americans, but they are in fact very racist towards South Asians--at least in Alberta.
aaa May 25, 2012 10:39am
This i also notice. Self biase is increasing day by day.
Concerned Canadian May 25, 2012 11:18am
Murtaza Haider has used census data from Statistics Canada to generate tables for Pakistan-born immigrants in Canada. Any university student or an academic in Canada, as well as statisticians at StatsCan, can verify his numbers because they all have access to the public use micro data file from 2006 Census. Furthermore, data for the 2011 Canadian census has not yet been released as micro data file.
Shankar May 25, 2012 12:00pm
It would be interesting to make such a study of South Asians in Middle East like UAE, Kuwait & Saudi. I have worked in Kuwait. My Pakistani friends there were very well educated and enterprising.
Agha Ata May 25, 2012 12:01pm
Incidentally, I have observed a strange behavior of Pakistanis. When they are on their visit to Pakistan they are not tired of praising America, the living standards they enjoy, and the rule of law etc, and show much dislike for Pakistan; and the same people when they are back in the USA, they start praising Pakistan and showing their hatred for the USA. I just wonder, why. Could anyone explain that to me please!
Raza May 25, 2012 12:12pm
I am living in US and have lived in Canada as well. My observation is that it is much easier to get immigration in Canada compared to US, however it is much easier to get a good Job in US compared to Canada, for a good career there is no place like US. In US immigration is followed by a good employment, in Canada immigration comes first and good employment in most cases comes much much later, sometime in next generation. In Canada you do well in the long run once you accept the reality and digg-in (which most of the immigrant do), social system helps as well. Canadian system encourages savings whereas US system encourage spending, apple to apple you will see that a family with lesser income in Canada accumulates higher net worth in the long run compared to its counterpart in US.
raza May 25, 2012 12:22pm
Higher % of working women in Indian community compared to Pakistan community I think. Off course only generally speaking, in a Pakistani family once a husband have a good career women generally stays home. Another difference in Indian community is their propensity to go all the way to Ph.D both in men and women, which increases the salary potential for a similar job
salim mastan May 25, 2012 12:58pm
Pakistanis made it in USA , Canada ,UK, UAE ,Saudi, everywhere,, Most importantly they made Pakistan In the deserts in the mountains, Fought 4 wars against a 5 times bigger country, were never afraid, toiled in 50 degrees heat never complained now we will make Pakistan inshallah ,
GangaDin May 25, 2012 01:01pm
I don't know what you mean by 'Affluent' but Pakistanis in US go are unable to stand-up for anything and always trying to blame others for their miseries. If "Affluent" means few bucks in the pocket, yes some of them have that
Tauheed Ahmed May 25, 2012 01:27pm
if you are so unhappy in Canada, all you have to do is buy a plane ticket to Pakistan. You can even buy the ticket online.
Suhail Ahmad May 25, 2012 01:34pm
Not entirely correct. There were many Pakistani illegal immigrants, especially in 1990s.
M K S May 25, 2012 01:37pm
Perhaps the numbers were correct but the style and reasoning put me off the previous article a bit too. Just look at the approach Michael has taken in presenting the studies for Pakistani- American community, as opposed to Murtaza Haider. Title states: How 'Affluent' Are The Paksitanis? vs. Paksitani-Candians falling below the 'Poverty' line. Both essentialy presenting similar facts yet there seems to be a totally different approach to taking in the contents of both articles. How does the saying go; It is now what you say but how you say it?
Farooq Khan May 25, 2012 02:18pm
My response to the concerned Canadian is that about a half of my comment was posted. The issue was taken up with Stats Canada. A gentlemen from their Quebec office could not cofirm the data. As a matter of fact he sent a copy of the written agreement with stats Canada which forbids people to use their data in a pulic form such as this newspaper. As a mental health professional who deals with psychopathology on daily basis It almost appears as if Dr Haider is angry at his own community in Canada and wants to insult them especially amongst among people who matter the most i.e. their family and friends back home in Pakistan.
Sridhar May 25, 2012 03:07pm
The report that the author refers to see is a goldmine. I thank him for the lead. There are a few areas of "catch up" that remain for Pakistani Americans (P-A) that were not mentioned. The per capita income for P-A is $24,663 compared to $ 27,100 for total population, $ 31, 735 for Whites and $ $ 36,533 for Indian Americans. The Poverty Rates for these groups in the same order are: 15% (P-A), 14% (Total Population), 10% (Whites) and 8% (Indian-Americans). One causal area could be the unemployment rate. P-A have the same rate of unemployment as the total population compared to both Whites and i-As come in with 6% unemployment rate.The Poverty rates for Seniors (age 64+) and Children is lower for both P-A and I-A at 9%, just below the average for total population that stood at 10%.
Bruce May 25, 2012 03:14pm
That's just ignorant. The median income for Pakistani-Americans is $63,000, and 55% of Pakistani-Americans have a bachelor degree, also there are proportionally more Pakistani doctors than Indian doctors in America. There are 35,000 Indian doctors in America out of 2 million Indians, compare that to 15,000 Pakistan doctors out of only 400,000 Pakistanis. That means 3.75% of Pakistani-Americans are doctors compared to only 1.75% of Indians that are doctors. Also, the American-Muslim community is much larger,more diverse and older than the American Hindu community. There are approx. 7 million Muslims in America compare that too roughly a million Hindus in America, and Egyptian Muslims have one of the highest rates of educational attainment even Nigerian-Americans have one of the highest rates of educational attainment. There are Muslims of every color in America white,black,south Asian and east Asian, Muslims have been migrating since 1880 to America and the first mosque in America was built in Maine in 1915 by white Albanian Muslims. 1 in 3 American Muslims make over $75,000. There are over 15,000 patriotic American Muslims serving in the U.S military, how many Hindus in America serve in the U.S military?I guess their allegiance is with India. I didn't want to drag religion into this, America is pluralistic nation and religion doesn't really matter, but you decided to take a cheap shot against Muslims. 45% of Muslims in America make over $50,000 compare that to the national average of 44%. 19% of American Muslims make over $100,000, whereas the U.S average is 17%, we may not be as affluent as Jews or Hindus but we're catching up, and our community is much larger and more diverse. Shahid Khan a Pakistani-American business man owns NFL team Jacksonville jaguars and Rima Fakih was the first Muslim Miss.USA. Are there any Hindu NFl/NBA owners?Are there any Hindu Miss.USAs? Bobby Jindal and Nikki Haley changed their names and converted to Catholicism to win public office.
mimi May 25, 2012 03:31pm
bruce get your sttas right . t15,00 paki docs. the total # of paki docs are close to 2000-3000. there are not even 15000 muslims doc in US. you are misrepresenting truth.
mimi May 25, 2012 03:33pm
and after 9/11 america hates ----------.
Kamran May 25, 2012 03:54pm
Big percentage of Pakistanis living in Canada has higher education or they immigrated as highly skilled professionals as compared to US. Then why Pakistanis are performing lot better in US and prospering as compared to many other minorities in the country? I think it is because in US you don't get any support from the government or state for housing, job or medical and when you come here you realize that if you don;t work very hard soon you will be either homeless and your children will be going to foster care or you will be going back to your country. That's why Pakistanis work very very hard in US accepting any odd jobs in the beginning so that they can support their household and brush up their professional skills part time. Eventually, they start finding better opportunities. In contrast, Pakistanis in Canada start getting social services as soon as they arrive in Canada and that makes them lazy or less productive and in the end they get used to it and live on social services and complain about not getting better opportunities. Pakistanis who work hard in Canada without complaining also get better prospect in the long run . In US, you have to work hard and there is no time of complaining otherwise you will be out of here.
Ajaya K Dutt May 25, 2012 04:51pm
I hear from my Pakistani physician friends that many emigrate because of deteriorating law and order situation in Pakistan. On the other hand many Indian physicians are going back because of increasing demand spurred by medical tourism. ( Most of the Asian Indian Americans are Engineers and scientists rather than physicians. However both Pakistani and Indians have brought a good name of their country of origin. AND that is a very important measure over and beyond monetary meter.
Ajaya K Dutt May 25, 2012 04:55pm
Many readers have commented about "Mr Murtaza's" or "Dr Haider" article. Author of this article is Michael Kugelman and not Mr Mrtaza or Dr Haider.
Amit May 25, 2012 04:56pm
I am Indian and you seem to be the first Pakistani or even muslim who said that USA is the best of all. Great to hear this truth from you. USA can be ignorant when it comes to foreign policy but it is top of the chart when it comes to taking care of its citizens.
amit May 25, 2012 05:04pm
The simple reason that Pakistanis or Indians do better in America than Canada is that American immigration is predominantly not based on points/family (like Canada) and also there is no discrimination based on ethnicity or religion in jobs. Immigrants in US are mostly who have got US degrees and had a job before getting a greencard so they were more educated and ready to immigration. Whereas in Canada, its opposite, you first get the PR then you make the move and take time to adjust, also I guess there some sort of discrimination in Canada when it comes to jobs.
Zubi May 25, 2012 05:24pm
"USA can be ignorant when it comes to foreign policy but it is top of the chart when it comes to taking care of its citizens." <<< "taking care of its citizens" ??? are you for real? where is the free health care? huge sums for university education? are you honestly saying that the US takes "better care" then the UK? how blinkered to write "first Pakistani or even muslim to say that USA are best" do you think ALL muslims hate the US? you have obviously been watching your "unbiased" indian news channels, lol.
shabut May 25, 2012 05:26pm
I think on the housing ownership side there could be few Pakistanis who practice strict rules when it comes to paying interest so even though they can afford a home they still prefer to live on rent to avoid paying interest.
Suhail Ahmad May 25, 2012 05:35pm
Haven't you heard grass is always greener on the other side.
Jamal May 25, 2012 05:36pm
Financial superiority has nothing to do with character superiority. Most of blackmarketers are financialy sound. extremely stingy and cheap communities that you just sited are naturaly rich (the result is number of slums in your countries as compared to US). its the generosity of money and TIME that we acquire and where we spend the metric of well being and happiness.
ali May 25, 2012 05:41pm
Better Medicare in Canada.
ali May 25, 2012 06:11pm
Less drugs, guns on Canadian streets better family life and clean no graffiti on walls. Can anybody take a stroll in the park in Detroit or any other US city after dark, no burnt down buildings like in Detroit and South Bronx etc etc . Canadians do not have to declare their race when filling out social security form.South Asians are members of Parliament all across Canada.Best economy in this difficult times.Multiculturalism protected by law.Clean Banking system, no large companies going down the drain.
Nasir Jaffry May 25, 2012 06:12pm
NJ USA Amit it's good to your positive comments on a seemingly Pakistani issue
Hassan May 25, 2012 06:14pm
I live in Canada and also lived in the US. My life is much better both financially and socially here. My income is in the top bracket, something which I could have only dreamt about in the US. While one is stereotyping then I can do it very easily by saying that most Pakistanis in US own or work at gas stations or drive cabs. Is it a true generalization? no? America baffles me as a country where most people from outside think that anyone living in America is doing well. It may be the case for some but vast majority of Pakistanis are not necessarily in good shape. Canada actually takes care of people when they are in need whether it be healthcare or if someone has lost a job as oppose to US. The only thing US has is cheap cost of living in places where no one wants to go.
Ahsan Naeem May 25, 2012 06:18pm
so, if a soon to be qualified ACCA has a good chance to land with a good job in the US? just asking. :)
Navaid May 25, 2012 06:20pm
Amit, Pakistanis do not have to say Amrika is the best. We just vote with our feet. Even the fundamentalist Islamic who sit on pulpit condemning the Great Satan, like to secure green cards for their children.
saad May 25, 2012 06:27pm
Why have the engineers and IT folks been left off the list here? They make up the largest number of Pakistani professionals in the United States, more so than doctors, financial analysts etc. The trend will be significantly upwards for Americans of Pakistani origin as they emphasize education for their own children and the earning potential is also bound to increase. One additional difference between Pakistani and Indian household income is that culturally and religiously, Pakistanis are more inclined to have the mother stay at home to ensure the upbringing of the kids is being done according to religious/cultural customs and as a result, the Pakistani families are typically being supported by a single earner. The trend within the Indian community in comparison is to have both the spouses working full time jobs to earn which results in higher household income on average.
saad May 25, 2012 06:29pm
So you met one homeless person who had no visa, is that an indication of something? I am sure people from all parts of the World looking to stay in the US have had some hard luck. Why discuss such a unique case?
saad May 25, 2012 06:32pm
The big difference amongst Muslims is the inclination to have one spouse stay at home and watch over the children. This certainly skews the numbers in favor of Jews and Hindus. At the end of the day, making $100,000 per household is not the end all, be all for everyone. For many Muslims, the upbringing of their children is worth the financial sacrifice.
Faraaz Khan May 25, 2012 06:56pm
Your hanging out in the wrong circles my friend Amit. I am an Indian Muslim, and very active in the Muslim community in Washington, DC and US in general, helping America work out a better foreign policy and general strategy towards Muslims around the world. I promise there are hundreds of thousands of muslims, if not millions who wouldn't live anywhere else in the world.
Sheeraz May 26, 2012 06:07am
That is only one street of one neighbourhood Mumtaz, by and large Canada is safer, securer than America
A Salama May 25, 2012 07:06pm
Another 'feel good' article by UGLee Amrikan. Author, please stop publishing these 'feel good' articles, we pakistanis are way too delusional anyway, we dont need any more delusions. If you want to see pakistani ghettos, visit brooklyn and devon st. chicago, 7-8 people living in barely a 2 bedrooms apartments.
Raza May 25, 2012 07:24pm
Amit, You should meet more people.
Kamran Sikandar May 25, 2012 07:31pm
I do not agree with you. I was nearly 50 when I came to Canada. Almost immediately I had a well paying engineering job with a hi-tech firm in Montreal. I am not an introvert. I have friends of almost all nationalities. I live in an affluent neighbourhood. And yes, I am not the only Pakistani there. There are many others - accountants, engineers, doctors and businessmen. Assimilation in the Canadian society is not a problem if someone wants. The people are very nice if you are nice to them and take the trouble to befriend them. As far as declaration of previous nationality is concerned, I proudly say I am a Pakistani-Canadian and so do all my friends. Yes we have trouble back home but then which country doesn't. Years back my Canadian friends did not discuss Pakistani politics. Over the years they have opened up and discuss politics with me - always politely. The misperception they have of Islam cannot be ignored. I never shy away from discussing it and encourage my friends to ask questions and clear doubts that they may have. Lastly, hiding actual income is not something that only immigrants do. Almost all hourly paid workers do that whether they are Canadian born or Pakistani born
waqas May 25, 2012 07:38pm
These cabbies both in US and Canada dont declare their full incomes to revenue departments. Since its all cash income, they just report 1/4 th of their income , hide all their cash in safety boxes, and enjoy full state benefits meant for real low income people. And than laugh at the govt! They dont realize, they are not only cheating the system, and breaking the law, but also eating haram
saba May 25, 2012 07:46pm
I can tell you the real story. I deal with Pakistani American population. Our community was not prepared for bad economy. Some of the serious issues that we are dealing in our community are: men and women who are not well educated and are driving cabs or working at retail stores. Their income is not enough to meet their ongoing expenses. You see many families ending up in the shelters Also, these are big families with altease 4 to 5 children plus their women are not working which makes both for men and women to make progress in their education and in their profession. Unfortunately, our families are not equipped with skills for bad times. Domestic violence is rampant in most of the young families. Women don't have the experience of work , have very little education , no English skills or family support. This is the most vulnerable group.
saba May 25, 2012 07:47pm
cont:Also those elderly people who have worked all their life in US, and send lots of money for family support in Pakistan, but had no retirement plan for themselves in US. And lastly Pakistani Americans who have no health insurance and have been suffering from diabetes and heart problems. You will be surprised how it effects their whole family when the head of the household is unable to work , and the whole family ends up on street or temporary shelters. I am not going to talk about doctors and engineers because they will survive in any economy
Zack May 25, 2012 07:56pm
Pakistani Americans are more richer than Pakistani Canadians for the same reason that Indian Americans are far richer then Indian Canadians. Canadian immigration is more liberal which allows a larger spectrum of immigrants while the American one is strict which allows in mainly high skilled labor. And the difference in wealth between Pakistani and Indian families in North America is that in Indian families more often than not the wife is working while in Pakistani families it is the other way around.Indian families also have less children.
Lupo May 25, 2012 09:15pm
As a first generation Indian immigrant who works in a government job that requires a very high security clearance and regularly interacts with Americans, I can categorically dismiss the idea that Canada is not good at integrating immigrants.
Lupo May 25, 2012 09:16pm
Now, the differences. Pakistanis are better off in the US because they are better themselves. Compare for example, the Indian, Italian, Portugese, Chinese, Greek, etc. communities to the Pakistani community in Canada. All those communities are better educated, healthier, wealthier, etc. In the US, the Pakistani community fares well when compared to other ethnic groups. The gaps aren't that big. This speaks to self-selection too. It would seem to me that the wealthier and better connected Pakistanis are settling in the USA and those who are less well-off are choosing Canada. Why is it for example that the gap between the Indo-Canadian and Indo-American communities isn't as large?
Hamza May 25, 2012 09:29pm
Saaray ke saaray bechare ek Amit per char jao.
Hamza May 25, 2012 09:31pm
Wow. Is this a psychological experiment or are you writing a doctoral thesis on this interesting subject?
Lupo May 25, 2012 09:40pm
This speaks to self-selection too. It would seem to me that the wealthier and better connected Pakistanis are settling in the USA and those who are less well-off are choosing Canada. Why is it for example that the gap between the Indo-Canadian and Indo-American communities isn't as large?
Shams May 25, 2012 09:53pm
Mohsin, What is wrong being a Blue collar worker? Bluye Collar workers make more money than white collar workers in USA, Canada and any other western country. None of the construction can be done withut blue collar workers an dFactories will be stand still if blue collar workers are not available. I will trade my Managerial Job with a blue collar union worker any second......I do not see many blue collar Asian - American workers.
Shams May 25, 2012 09:56pm
Right ON Anwar hav eput it very intelligently.....
Ali May 25, 2012 10:23pm
Amit-I am a Pakistani lived in USA for 15 years ad now live in Canada and adopted Canada as my home but still love USA. I also met many families of Pakistani origin in my 15 years in the USA and they all loved the country. Please note disagreeing with some policies does not mean hate rid if that is the cause of your interpretation.
Taha Rafai May 25, 2012 10:46pm
1/ 2I disagree with the findings in the Haider's article. I am Engineer by profession and my wife is doctor by profession in Canada. Majority of the Pakistanis immigrated to Canada in 2000-2001 and I am one of them. 2005 data represents the time period when majority of the Pakistanis were new in Canada. Just in Edmonton there are around 300 Pakistani engineers (over 40 engineers in Alberta Transportation) are working in public/private sector with average salary over 100,000. The author just talked about Pakistani doctors: why. Are doctors from india, Britain and even from USA are getting jobs in their profession without writing exams, the answer is no. Two Pakistani MLAs from Edmonton are elected in the recent provincial election and one is nominated as Minister. Over 95% of the Sikhs off course represent Indian community are truckers or cabians and their motto is "make money" as they have to import their parents, brothers, sisters by all means.Their living style can be witnessed in Surrey, Brampton, Edmonton and Calgary. its 2012 and I am proud of being Pakistani and our performance as Canadian. I will advise Mr. Haider to use the recent data that will help the author to build his credibility.
Taha Rafai May 25, 2012 10:47pm
2/2 After reading Mr. haider's article, I worte him an emal and Mr. Haider's response to me email is as follows: The Census data are available with a lag of three to five years. The 2006 Census data was released in 2011. The 2011 Census data with details about 2010 income will be released by 2015/16. I’ll report back in three to four years once new data are available in Canada. In case you are familiar with better sources of data, please do advise me. Glad to know you are doing well. I sincerely hope to see more Pakistanis do well in Canada. My former students (not of Pakistani origin) from McGill University, where I was a professor of transportation engineering, are working in Alberta and I’m very pleased and proud of their progress. Sincerely, Murtaza: My question to you all: Does Mr. Haider's response make any sense?
sahil khan May 26, 2012 12:24am
How about indians....I know so many indians....hate the US even those who are thriving In US.
David May 26, 2012 01:28am
There are no Pakistani American slums in USA!lol What a joke......... I can tell u about one big one at least. hIgh point NC. 7000+ Pakistani Americans population and fast growing. Literacy rate less than 20%. Median household income 9000$ a year, 70% on social security benefits.employed less than 50% mostly laborers. Fruit of all the illegals who became legal from late 1980s during agriculture worker legalization drive, and sponsored their families from small backward villages of Pakistan. Every year more than 500 are landing with no money and go directly on social security benefits, staying in poor living conditions, sometimes 10 to15 people in 2bedroom houses. Some immigrants are old and on their death beds but everyone wants to come to America!!!lol What's worse is some of these immigrants had good jobs in Pakistan but left everything to just be in america! And now are doing minimum wage jobs here. Rest are jus eating up the social security benefits and thus hard earned tax money of other hard working Pakistani americans who did come to this country on the basis of hard work n education in search of brighter futures.
Ali May 26, 2012 01:37am
I lived in both USA and Canada (currently in Canada) and am originally from Pakistan. I am going to provide a few points which may also be contributing to the difference. However, I do so I will point out a few things. In the previous article readers mentioned that Pakistanis do not integrate in the society or lie about their income. However, in contrast, in this article them mentioned the US is more welcoming and integrating the Pakistanis better. Now to a few points: 1) In US most families live and work, however in Canada a number of people have no problems with their status so they mostly live for 6 months and then go back to Pakistan even with the kids. 2) Social system and medical system sometime does nto encourage hard work which exist in Canada. 3) Canada also encourages more kids and thus do not provide opportunities for one spouse to work since Pakistanis do not mind contributing to the society by providing more kids as a good second generation.
Mumtaz May 26, 2012 02:04am
Can every one take a stroll on Jane & Finch in Toronto? Don't just pick only bad part of America.
Tahir khan May 26, 2012 02:51am
Doesn't this go for the Indians too, if you want to find out then talk to an Indian who still haven't got a resident visa.
Shaukat May 26, 2012 03:55am
Bruce,don't forget Bobby Jindal' father was born in Pakistan even though he is Hindu,so we can say ,Bobby's parents are Pakistani American NOT Indian American. I agree with you, he changed his Hindu religion to get elected, typical politician.
Jeff May 26, 2012 04:04am
mimi, you are disputing with made up facts. Post 9/11 America has a different equation but pre 9/11 America, according to published stats on AMA website for foreign medical graduates stated that foreign medical graduated constituted 25% of the physicians in USA (and not just 35% indian as someone claimed above). 19% came from India and 11.9% came from Pakistan. So at least until pre 9/11 times, Pakistani's were proportionally had overwhelming representation compared to indians. In port 9/11 America, the Pakistani ongoing addition to foreign medical graduates rate dropped to 4% but the increase went to Phillipine, Bangladesh and other countries, and not to india. I dont know what it is in last 2-3 years but these types of things do change that much. I greatly admire and appreciate the indian diaspora, their achievements are note worthy. But one thing I always found less admirable is the propensity for Indians to present themselves so high and mighty - I cant believe that otherwise good people are so afflicted with a superiority complex basis of which as weak but even if they werent, my god, why cant you all be humble?
Jeff May 26, 2012 04:13am
What a stats slam dunk! - But Bruce I do think that indian are much more focused on education and their litrary , arts, and community contributions are probably considerably higher than muslims. I say that without stats, just as someone who reads a lot and is relying on his instincts. I love the indian people, most of them are genuinely good decent people. I feel the same way about Jews, and for that matter really most everyone in America.
Imad Qureshi May 26, 2012 04:23am
Free health care?? Where in the world do you get free health? Not Germany, not Sweden, not Norway, not England and certainly not Canada. There is no free lunch. Countries with single payer health care system, do so by far higher taxes than US. And during the time of care they are put in long waiting queues for surgeries, for months in some cases. I agree that a better solution should be found for people without health insurance in US but I would prefer the current health care system in US over the one in countries where there is so called "free" or "Single payer" system is.
ali May 26, 2012 05:36am
Having lived in both countries I had a very good paying job in the US which I cant even dream in Canada. I would prefer Canada over the US but only if Canada give me a comparative job. What is the point of immigration if they cannot give you jobs? Why bother people from other countries? Sorry I am not here to start my education again or clean and cook. And at the same time I wish US had a leninet immigration policy and I can tell you half the immigrants in Canada wont be here.
Abizaib May 26, 2012 07:33am
Yes, absolutely. Come where I live. We don't even lock our cars and homes. There is no grafitti, crime and what not. Cherry picking is easy especially when you do not know everything but you assume you do. I drove to Vancouver BC couple of times, and both times my car got broken into. I like Vancouver but it ain't all that sterile that you are trying to portray.
Abizaib May 26, 2012 07:39am
Out of curosity what were your observations between East and West coast?
austrianecon May 26, 2012 07:48am
This discrepancy or achievement gap between Pakistani Americans and Pakistani Canadians is quite interesting and counter-intuitive. Doesn't Canada have a point based immigration system? This system is essentially biased in favor of skilled immigrants. The US immigration primarily accounts for chain (sponsorship) migration. Additionally, Pakistanis have more social capital in Canada in comparison to the US. There is a positive correlation between social capital and immigrant achievement.
Abizaib May 26, 2012 07:52am
Is this a rheotorical question?
Desiinocca May 26, 2012 07:56am
I have lived 5 years in Australia, 1 Year in Canada before moving to USA and found USA is the most accepting and least racist society.
musheir May 26, 2012 09:50am
mosques, hijabs and curry-houses in the UK i blame the welfare state in uk for demotivating pakistanis here i know of many people who stopped working because they could get same amount on welfare, on a positive note 5% of doctors are of pakistani origin here.
Baba Sidni May 26, 2012 11:11am
I don't know much about USA, Great Britain, Canada or some,other countries, but I can say out loud that there is almost free health care in Australia. Yes, those earn above a certain limit, and do not have private health insurance, have to pay a certain percentage of amount of income as a health care tax, but those below the poverty line do not pay anything. I myself opted for private health insurance, after some necessary calculations, that if I have private health insurance, I would be paying a lot less, than a compulsory percentage of family income for health insurance, but still I don't receive any preferential treatment at the good government hospitals. All the good hospitals are government run, and the private hospitals, with expertise in some cosmetic surgery or likes of it, are not worth visiting, as far as I am concerned, as for any complication, they still rush you to the government hospitals. So the bottom line my friend is, to give such a sweeping statement, one should double check the available data.
sheridanK May 26, 2012 12:09pm
United states is no more the ruling state in the world, the US $ is is in the ICU of a tertiary care hospital. Its not going to recover and as signs are will take down the 'too big' united states economy with it and then these run-away asians will be stranded in their dreamland of freedom and prosperity. As they tried to run away from their home countries, similarly they will now flee from this land of freedom, after the axe falls on the US curtain, but they will be TOO LATE.
B S Pani May 26, 2012 12:38pm
Could it be also that the female literacy rate in India and among Indians overseas is much higher. This year over 4800 girls qualified for IITs- just double the number that did in 2010. The top of Indian administrative services which draws the cream of intelligentsia from graduate levels in India for last three years have been women. Govt. here is bending backwards to educate the girl child here. Remember what Gandhiji had said- 'Educate a man you educate a person - educate a women you educate a family."
Pakistani Canadian May 26, 2012 01:30pm
This is the correct assessment. Whether Pakistani Americans or Muslim Americans, they will in USA because in general the American people are fair minded whose minds have not been corrupted by the media and hate mongering. As a Pakistani Canadian I now live in USA and love it here, get an education, practice your deen and take care of your family and neighbors. My advice is not to leave your homeland if you can try to make a better life at home, but if oppressed then really USA is the only Western country to immigrate towards.
Syed May 26, 2012 01:36pm
Do not forget Pakistani Billionare Shahid khan who recently bought Jacksonville Jaguars(american football team). There are many pakistanis who are not only millionare but also influential here. Most important thing is good education and hardwork.
Rizwan Khan May 26, 2012 01:52pm
Education, free / positive mind, and willingness to work hard are the key ingredients of success.
Bilal May 26, 2012 01:59pm
I live in DC, what I observed in the last 4-5 years of my stay here in US, is that Pakistanis in general like short cuts. Even if they are PhD, MS or highly qualified guys happily settle for cab/gas station jobs and women will easily go for day-care jobs. What is strikingly different in Indians, is that they will do right connection, establish strong networking, get into Fortune 500 companies and bring the whole family from India in 3-4 years.
Vikram May 26, 2012 02:39pm
Farhan" As bulk of Pakistanis are doing kind of jobs where income has to be self declared versus Indians who are working in white collar companies; they are probably not declaring their income properly to save taxes" Save taxes is a wrong term. These people are cheating on Taxes. In addition to cheating on Taxes these people try to get as much FREE government beenfits they can get from government. Many so called doctors are cheating big time in medicare in US.
BHB May 26, 2012 02:40pm
Bruce - You start of talking about Pakistani-Americans and then start including all Muslim-Americans. Pakistanis may have been indoctrinated to believe that they represent all Muslims everywhere but non-Pakistani Muslims don't want to be identified with Pakistan or anything that it represents. Furthermore, non-Pakistani Muslims cherish their identity as more than just their religion.
observer May 26, 2012 02:44pm
OK . So the national sport of tax evasion is being played across seas too.
Zack May 26, 2012 02:57pm
Nothing you have said has contested what he said. Jews and Hindus are the richest 2 communities in the US . A huge percentage of the muslim population in the US are contrary to popular opinion African-Americans not immigrants who have been traditionally at the lower step of the economic ladder. BTW Jindal and Haley were Sikhs not hindus.
observer May 26, 2012 02:58pm
Foe someone not wanting to bring religion in you seem to be doing exactly the opposite. About Bobby Jindal and Nicky Hailey conversions, suffice it to say that anyone converting out of Hinuism does not automatically become wajibul qatl. And since you have made it Hidu/Christian v/s Islam, I hope you have excluded Ahmadis out of your data of successful 'Muslims'. Even I am not much interested in religion just like you.
Yasz May 26, 2012 04:45pm
who care about the United States living standards compare to Canadians or even the "British" compare it to TEXAS everyone looses. Texas is the Best in living standards, education, freedom, you name it TEXAS will TOP the chart! GOD Bless TEXAS!!!
Yasz May 26, 2012 04:47pm
forget the "Pakistani-American" its now about the "Pakistani-TEXAN" ya'll
Imran May 26, 2012 05:27pm
With all due respect here, first we have to see what we are talking about here…Religion, culture, values? Do we, as Pakistanis, know what these actually are and what they mean to us? Seriously, let’s weigh the situation of Pakistan as it stands today. You cannot do anything or take one step into any government office there without bribing even the door man. Need light? Sure but you’ll have to pay a price just short of giving up your first born. As civil war breaks out across the country people living in privileged areas happily live in a cocoon of fantasies and lies that they think foolishly is impenetrable. Now if you feel the burn and you want out where can you turn to when most of the world is aware of your shortcomings? Canada / America offered us a home where we did not have to suffer through lack of justice and could practice our religion and culture without persecution, but perhaps we are not used to these comforts. Where we came here to escape our country’s fails, we have begun to create them here as well, but what we need to realize is that we are Muslims and must embrace our new home within the bounds of our religion and identity, otherwise there was no point in coming here. If we want to know how we should live and how we should conform, we should look to the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Never has there been a man who lived his life in complete surrender and related to so many people from so many walks of life on so many levels (He is still considered the most influential personality in history). If we learned to live our life simply and honestly then we would not have these issues, more or less, anything would be enough. In this life of overspending and dreams of greatness we forget that we are human beings and our Creator is watching our every move, so don’t be idle, MOVE...Learn, apply, adapt and follow His words to insure success…Let’s pray all together that Allah gives us Guidance. Ameen. Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do. (Quran - 6:159) And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. (Quran 3:103) And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute and [thus] lose courage and [then] your strength would depart; and be patient. Indeed, Allah is with the patient. (Quran - 8:46)
Syed Ahmed May 26, 2012 06:26pm
Doesn't matter where you live USA or Canada, the fact remains you will probably be better off than living in Pakistan. I think its shambolic that we cannot live in our own country and work towards prosperity there. We have to travel to other countries and leave the country our fathers build in hopes of a better life. Why can't we improve the living condition at home? why aren't more and more Pakistanis asking this question, but are instead comparing the living conditions of two different established western nations? God bless.
Muhammad Tayyab May 26, 2012 06:34pm
one of the most important thing which we ignore about our culture is our social traning based on religiosity. we have very narrow vision and concentrate on only one perspective which is religion. we are not allowed to explore other dimension or other perspectives. without having broad vision and prespective we cant compete with others................................. we need to review our inherent flaws if we want to grow as world is .........................
waqar May 26, 2012 06:47pm
Raza, Your interpretation is amazingly correct. I am an Engineer who earned foreign degree in Canada and hold Engineering Licenses in both jurisdictions. I have also worked as professional Engineer in Canada for five years, and for last eleven years working in California again as professional Engineer. In the long run Canadian Experience is more wholesome. Economically speaking, during last ten years the savings of working professionals in USA have totally vanished due to multiple reasons.
gp65 May 26, 2012 07:27pm
Both did NOT present similar data . First in US, Pakistanis are better than general US population in some respects and worse in some other respects. It is a fact that median household income for Pakistanis is higher than average Pakistanis though per capita income is lower - due to larger household sizes. While home ownership rates maybe lower, university graduating levels for men are higher. When it comes to Cansda, Pakistanis are much worse off than the general population. As it had indicated 44% below poverty line and 25% who have never entered employment. This is pereceived as abuse of the immigration system by Canada and in the last 10 years there is a 70% reduction in number of Pakistanis that were allowed in Canada. So when the facts are SO diferent it is natural that headlines will also be different
gp65 May 26, 2012 07:34pm
Murtaza wrote about Canada not US. Unclear why you say information is distorted when it is from the census.
gp65 May 26, 2012 07:44pm
They are referring to Dr. Murtaza's article On Canadian Pakistanis which appeared yesterday.This author a;so referred to Dr. Murtaza's article.
M K S May 26, 2012 08:39pm
* not what you say but how you say it.
M K S May 26, 2012 08:46pm
Mentioned in comparison. No need to get all riled up.
Yawar May 26, 2012 08:54pm
Once ethnic groups form their own areas of concentration then they tend to live and move about within the confines of that circle. Such groups of individuals are afraid to go beyond their own comfort zones. The fear of assimilating with the rest of the population tends to keep many Pakistanis and Bangladeshis behind. Also the areas of their businesses or work are limited to gas stations, desi grocery and restaurants, insurance agencies, travel agencies, etc. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have to venture outside their circles, especially in higher education, to reduce the gap with their Indians counterparts.
Khan May 27, 2012 12:27am
More than 50% of the convenient stores in Houston are owned by Pakistanis. They have a very strong netwrork among themselves and support their clan to start gas station businesses. Few years back they caught a Pakistani who landed from Karachi with a suitcase of cash. Most of the income is self reported only. So the statastics given here does not make sense as there is a large underground economy here too
Riz May 27, 2012 01:31am
America has given me the opportunity by giving me a good job, after I worked hard to finish college. Where there is a will America has the way. God bless!
ali May 27, 2012 03:41am
Yes they can ,it is full of people all day and night,thousands and thousands of people live and shop in this area.this area can be considered dangerous from the peaceful Canadian standards, but this area is not dangerous as per American standards, to them this will be heaven , but in any case a very small area has been identified but all American cities are dangerous, forget about walking in the park at night you cant even walk on the streets after dark in America.
ali May 27, 2012 03:51am
You dont lock your home and car living in the States? don`t let the insurance company find out about it.Otherwise you ain`t gonna get a penny.
ali May 27, 2012 03:54am
I have lived in Dallas, Houston and Tyler. It was okay. The weather is bad. People are okay. Jobs are rare. I dont understand what you are talking about. Maybe you hit some jackpot.
Yamim May 27, 2012 03:55am
Amen to that,!
Yamim May 27, 2012 03:57am
Bashah Malik May 27, 2012 05:48am
our background determines our image. Praising US in Pak enhances my image in the eyes of the listeners. The same objective while back in USA. examples, I belong to a noble family, my school is higher ranked, etc. Any way you raised a very interesting point.
easkari May 27, 2012 05:54am
Its immoral to disclose private emails in public. You have broken the trust.
Asjad Khan May 27, 2012 08:17am
Very informative and enlightening article. Pakistani diaspora in America or Canada is well-off or otherwise, every community represents this concoction or mix of prosperity and poverty. That fact is; whoever makes efforts, makes his way through to the top in those progressively open societies. Those societies do offer even-handed opportunities to all to progress without any prejudice though in relative terms because there are good and bad people everywhere. However, to b realistic those societies treat us better than we are treated by our own people at home; filled with antagonistic filth, jealousy and arrogance. Even if America stands for enmity against whoever, its our own weaknesses which others capitalize own. If you point a blaming finger to others, three are pointed to your own-self. Pakistani in America and Canada at least are treated with respect and justice that in our society is very very very rare.
Rafay May 27, 2012 09:15am
Oh please, stop making things up...
Iqbal May 27, 2012 09:33am
Well said Raza! I totally agree with you. I am a Pakistani American, who came to the US with $30 in one pocket, and hope in other, because many of my own countrymen would not consider me an equal (to them). After hard work, and completing my education, today, I am one of the thousands of Pakistani immigrants, who were once rejected in our own country and then found peace, prosperity and love in our new home, a place called the United States.
Amin Ansari May 27, 2012 09:44am
I agree. It was a private email that you must not post in a public forum. Your behavior does not make sense.
shams May 27, 2012 10:15am
Good analysis !!
shams May 27, 2012 10:22am
These cabbies in Canada are far better off than their counterpart in USA or Austr
shams May 27, 2012 10:28am
Good observation
Khu May 27, 2012 11:35am
That is anecdotal evidence. If you are curious then ask the people who have displayed such behavior to explain their actions. Your observations are in no way indicative of any behavioral patterns common to Pakistanis in general.
An X- Pakistani May 27, 2012 12:47pm
I worked as a Factroy worker in Europe, and found my self in a limbo. There was no opportunity that I could have excelled to a better profession. After wasting 5 years of my life I found my way to become a doctor. Now in this land of opportunity, I became a successful physician. I could not have imagined my self at this position if I was living in Pakistan or Europe. America is the greatest country on the face of earth. I found no discrimination in this country as I faced living in Europe. And of course you have abundance of electricity, gas, water and the food you want to eat and above all the security of your life and property thoug it is the country of infidels.
A Pakistani May 27, 2012 12:50pm
They must be illegal, or preferred to stay on the welfare system. They should move to Canada, where "khirat" is abundant and government is much more generous.
Afaq May 27, 2012 02:24pm
Please define what Social services they get on arrival which is special for them then any other Canadian which make them lazy. It is true that US have far bigger economy with better opportunity then Canada. In Canada you have to work more harder to get into better income level. Most Pakistani Canadian are able to reach good income level but very few fail in this task.
geele mitti May 27, 2012 03:13pm
my comments are usually cencored here but i will try one more time. comments here sketch a pretty rosy picture of Pakistani's in North America , Canada and US but one fail to understand why we should even consider them a "Pakistani" because the fact that they are outside of Pakistan is testemony to their choice that they dont see Pakistan good enough to live. Otherwise why else they would move out of Country that you passionately love and would like to see prosper. Or is it that they are only concerned with their well being and would like "real Pakistanis" to sort our the mess. Once Pakistan is to their level and liking they will "Bless" this country with their presence. Sitting outside and sending few dollars as "Bakhseesh" doesnot make them Pakistani. Their intelligence abilities make them more responsible to bring change in Pakistan but first and foremost requirement is for them to CONSIDER pakistan their priority which i am afraid is not the case and will not be sans few exceptions
S.A.Khan May 27, 2012 04:30pm
The Pakistanis outside Pakistan having adopted citizenship of the resident countries could not be regarded as Pakistanis. they are citizens of that country of Pakistan origin
MichaelKugelman May 27, 2012 04:34pm
I never imagined this post would spark such a fascinating debate between Pakistani-Americans and Pakistani-Canadians. I've learned a lot here. Many thanks. One point of clarification: This piece was meant to be a response to Dr. Haider's article on Pakistani-Canadians and poverty, not his more recent one on South Asians in the U.S. I had submitted my piece before his latter article was even published.
observer May 27, 2012 05:20pm
'Character Superiority'? As in WTC Bombing 1993 or attempted Times Square Bombing ? Do grow out of this superiority complex.
Mohan Ram May 27, 2012 06:24pm
I have worked in Alberta and retired from there and have not had any problem over race or religion.. It is how you behave towards your neighbour. If you are a closet person who thumps your nose as a superior, then you are bound to find the Albertans indifferent towards you.
gp65 May 27, 2012 08:47pm
Dr. Haider has written about both American Pakistanis AND Candaian Pakistanis. The one that the author is referring to is the one on Pakistani Canadians.
Keen observer May 28, 2012 12:27am
I guess they are the representatives of the absentee. Another way to look at it is that they want one to accept the other. I think they are stuck between the two worlds, and want desperately for one to accept the other, they probably know the goods and bads of both sides more than the commentators on one side or the other. I know that because once I was in there shoes.
Naveed Lotia May 28, 2012 01:21am
I am a Pakistani Canadian, living in Canada for the last 11 years. My experience in Canada has been very positive. I got a job in my profession at a mid career level within a month of moving to Toronto and now, 11 years later, I am at a senior level in my career. I am sure the statistics quoted by Mr Murtaza Haider are correct but I can say all the Pakistanis I know in Canada have done quite well career wise and are working in varied and interesting fields. I do come accross the occasional Pakistani Taxi driver but then, one also comes accross Indian, Middle Eastern, Iranian, African & East Europeans in such fields as well.
Omair May 28, 2012 04:12am
Hate to say it but I have done this on several occasions (having just recently arrived in the US). My guess is that it is just human nature to think highly of what he does not have.
Sandeep Singh May 28, 2012 04:47am
This is the hypocrazy. Pakistanis hate America untill they got Residential Visa..
Sohail May 28, 2012 04:56am
Excellent article. I am a little familiar of Pakistani society of Canada and US as lived long enough in both countries. I think reasons the statistics do not weigh very well for Pakistani Canadians are: overall there are less opportunities for the overseas professionals to get a compatible job in Canada. There are far fewer universities in Canada and far fewer pathways for the overseas skilled person to nurture his career. Also immigration and vaious licensing authorities are not very much aligned, thus you may get Canadian Immigration because of your profession but you may not ever be able to practice that profession in Canada.
switch hit May 28, 2012 07:12am
OK so Farhan -- as per you, what is the correct conclusions?? -- let me guess: Pakistanis earn more than Indians, and have a higher standard of living??- what is this pakiani obsession to always find a conspiracy theoy or question reality??
switch hit May 28, 2012 07:46am
So Khan -- what is your point? -- you want to make Houseton / USA just like pakistan?! -- pay no taxes, and have a parallel corrupt inefficient economy?!
Sohail Jun 29, 2012 10:58pm
Living in Bahrain, I share yr observation.
One American May 29, 2012 01:22am
Some one said that the Canada is the graveyard of the professionals. You are may a be a lucky one, but i have several nephews born in Canada and graduated from Canadian Universities, and could not find a job. How a migrant will be hired when Canadian born looking job in the United States. Canada is a welfare state , its is good for the old people who are not in the working condition and looking for free health care and free money. And let me tell you about the health care in Canada. It is one of the worse on the earth. To see a specialist you will wait for six months . For a CT scan or MRI wait is two to three months.
tariq May 29, 2012 05:07am
I have been engineer in US for 35 years, from Pakistan with BSEE. Than MSEE. Most Pakistanis here on low end jobs and small store owners. Work for govt, self employed in small biz and work for each other. Even Pakistani doctors here treat mostly low labor class blacks, hispanics and desiz. Whites dont come to them. In engineering also at low end, O&M , QA/QC. Not in high end design or research, acadnd emic. Those married to whites do better. And all prosperity is fake, because everything ( home, car etc) is on bank loan. They are upto their eyeballs in debts of all kinds (student loan, home loan, car loan, business loan, credir card loan etc). All came for riches but end up in hardwork and eternal debt. Is this prosperity or slavery. According to Islam all people in debt are poor and zakat/hajj etc not on them till loans paid off in full. Most elderly Pakistaniz hide income/assets and getting govt charity thru fraudulent means while living in luxury.
Mubeen Alum May 29, 2012 07:57am
Well written article right here.
Naseer Qureshi May 29, 2012 01:17pm
I have been living in the USA for almost fifteen years. I absolutely agree with your comments. The USA has given us more than we deserved. Truely the land of opportunity. It has enalbled us to take care of us, our family members here and in our beloved country Pakistan. I also have been to Canada. I have observed that Pakistani-Americans are well-off.
Naseer Qureshi May 29, 2012 01:48pm
I think you missed the point. Here the comment is not about the foreign policy or politics. Almost a Million plus Pakistanis (including American citizens of Pakistani origin) reside in the USA. As an American Citizen of Pakistani Origin I can say very confidently that Pakistanis or any muslims (male or female) are happier to be in the United States than any other country. Indian media is extremely biased towards muslims expecially Pakistanis and has taken whole nation hostage of its nefrious agendas.
Gamer100 Jun 01, 2012 03:10pm
The numbers on Pakistanis living below the poverty line and unemployed in the US is misleading due to under-reporting of income and cash based transactions.
Laeeq Jun 03, 2012 01:10am
Well said, and we should include the green card holder politicians too.
wasim Jun 04, 2012 12:20am
Canada's immigration policy is flawed.Pakistani immigrants are not utlilized by their system. Well, Pakistani also learned to work around it. Their goals of immigration is citizenship of Canada. Once they get it..they move on to US, middle east or get their children educated in Canadian universities while living anywhere else.
@rmaleshri Jun 04, 2012 08:22pm
The real reason for the so called poverty of Pakistanis in canada is that they don't integrate with others. Girls are forced to wear covering dress, while boys are free to go around and fix white girls. Girls are treated as second class family members. Moreover, the women are asked to have more children to compensate the many killed in Pakistan, Afganistan, Iraq and other muslim countries. I have observed women with 8 kids and 9th on the way. Even the age gap between kids are very small, thus taking care of them is a challenge. If they produce less children and give them good care and education, then this question of poverty will not arise. Just look around the other immigrants and will notice the difference.
Tipu Jul 08, 2012 04:44pm
You have a positve attitude and I wish you more and more success..
Tipu Jul 08, 2012 04:37pm
Strongly agree
Anees Jul 28, 2012 03:34am
why did uk welfare not demotivate the successful Indian and Chinese community there?