January 9, 2005

‘The Muslims have stopped thinking. They believe they’re living in the 18th century. This is not going to help them in becoming enlightened and adjusting to the contemporary ways of living,’ says Dr Fathi Osman

DR Fathi Osman teaches at the Institute for the Study of Islam in the Contemporary World in Los Angeles. He believes that the curricula for lower, secondary and higher education should be formulated and evolved by the people of the country where they are taught. However, he is also of the view that experience and knowledge can be acquired by sending people to other countries. He prefers this to bringing people into one’s own country from outside to develop our curricula.

The Los Angeles-based Egyptian scholar, who has been living away from Egypt for more than 30 years and has taught in Muslim countries including Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Malaysia, is critical of the contradictions that exist in the West as well as of the Muslims’ failure in focusing on acquiring knowledge and adapting to modern ways of living.

Recently Dawn Magazine caught up with Dr Osman in Karachi and discussed issues related to education. The following are excerpts from his interview.

Q. How does the education system of a country influence the mindset of its people? Do you think a particular system that is alien to the ethos of a people can really make them moderate?

A. Our problem is the dichotomy that exists between the people who don’t want to detach themselves from the past and those who are focused on the present and the future. Acquiring education is the only way to solve the problems that are faced by the Muslims. This must be done if our future generation is to play its role in the modern world.

Q. The World Bank and some western countries are trying to work out certain curricula for the developing countries, and they think that it is the most appropriate way to make their people moderate. The problem is that the majority of these nations can’t afford their kind of education. What’s your view on it?

A. It is a big challenge for the mass media that can mould the mindset of coming generations. Unless this is done, any sort of plan which does not take roots of the people into consideration and cannot make them peacefully adjust to the contemporary ways will fail. It may be able to recruit a very tiny minority of knowledge-seekers, but there will still be problems. That is the kind of a challenge that Pakistan faces, because it is not a small country. It is a country with a huge population. If on the one hand it has a lot of potential as far as its scientists and intellectuals are concerned, on the other hand it has to cope with a vast rural society having a lot of illiterate people. It is a big challenge.

Q. Another problem is that there is no democracy in the Muslim world. You often say that Islam and democracy are not necessarily incompatible. Can you cite any example from history in which democracy co-existed with Islam?

A. Yes, of course. The Holy Quran says about those who wield power that they get their authority from the people. So it is very important that we make the people think along these lines. In the past the Holy Quran was interpreted by authoritarian and totalitarian regimes and the masses harboured the notion that those regimes were powerful. This made the people disoriented and they thought that kind of government existed when they used to hold sway over the world, therefore they must revert to the same system.

But one must understand that this is where the decline of such societies began. Now we have to think afresh and should not be necessarily tied to the West because of our colonial bitter experiences. As far as wisdom is concerned, there is no West or East. I believe that even the so-called western civilization is global now. It can be witnessed in India, Pakistan, Korea and Japan. It is not western anymore. It has become global. So we have to refresh our mindset. But unfortunately we always talk about the need for ijtehad. This never happens and whenever someone attacks us, we find ourselves vulnerable.

In the last two centuries we have had only two mujtahids in the Muslim world, Shaikh Mohammad Abduh of Egypt and Mohammad Iqbal in the Indian subcontinent. This situation is poor to bring about any radical change in our society. Times have changed. From a mainly rural and agrarian society we have changed into an urban and industrialized one.

So how can we accept certain things from classical lore which had no idea about what we’re going to experience now? Today any bank can go bankrupt in a minute if something wrong happens. So if there is a risk then there should also be something to make up for it. The muftis have no idea about economics. They just believe in what they read in books of the mediaeval times.

If you look at the development in Europe in the 16th century, you would notice that they had ample time for change. But we seem to be surprised by the pace with which things are happening globally. They appear to be beyond our grasp. Our children and grandchildren are also suffering. The education system has to take care of this issue.

Q. Is ijmah possible in the modern world?

A. Yes. It has to be understood that we have amongst us liberal as well as conservative people. How can they reach a consensus on sensitive issues. Polarization is a serious issue in our countries, especially with those who call the shots. If they can reach a consensus among themselves, the masses will follow them. Egypt was faced with such problems in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. But Pakistan is still grappling with them.

Q. Many people in Pakistan think that the attempt by the World Bank and other international organizations to help evolve new curricula in our country is an attempt to impose certain alien thoughts on our society, and that is why it is conjectured that it’s not going to work.

A. As far as my experience goes, some projects or plans of the World Bank in some areas are not always realistic. They don’t have any idea about our roots. We need to educate them and let them know about it by being patient, not by challenging them because they are not our people. Some of them may not be ready for going through another experience. So we have to be patient and try to have a dialogue with them to let them know about our own circumstances. Their pilot project may not succeed. But let us learn from this experience, because unless we try we cannot know the practicalities of reforms.

Q. But their emphasis is on higher education and the lower primary and secondary levels are not being addressed. In a country like Pakistan where education gets very little attention do you think that focus on higher education alone can change society?

A. I believe this is the only way. It may be difficult, but it is not impossible.

Q. Who should develop or formulate the curricula in a country?

A. The people of the country where they’re going to be applied. I believe that experience and knowledge can be acquired by sending people to other countries. This should be preferred to bringing people from the outside world to develop curricula. It is better to pick up some of our own people for extensive training programmes, especially the young people.

Q. It is said that these days the educational system is used by certain powers to mould the world according to their own whims. What’s your response to this observation?

A. That is true; but I believe things are now changing. Nowadays nobody believes that they can monopolize power. We, the people, can expedite the process of change.

Q. One other problem that the Muslim world is faced with is the issue of suicide bombing. In Pakistan it has become a serious matter. What is Al Azhar’s stand on suicide bombing? And how do you see this phenomenon?

A. I think that it should be condemned. It is not humane, nor is it religious. So it’s an exercise in futility. Innocent people are suffering because of this phenomenon. But the army and the police are also not of much help. In this regard Iraq is a very apt example. American troops, the police, new guards of the government and those people who want to challenge America in Iraq are all basically hurting the general public.

The major problem with the Muslims is that they have stopped thinking. They believe that they’re still living in the late 18th century.

Q. Should the West also change its mindset? Is there a need for it?

A. Yes, definitely. In the West they think that things can change by using force. Also, they don’t practise what they profess. They always try and preach democracy, but in some places they are strengthening police states against the so-called terrorists. I think that the West, especially the US, is unfortunately guided by some people who don’t have experience in dealing with Muslim and other non-European societies.

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