‘Pakistanis can still organize themselves around the forces of democracy which may have as much to do with economic equality as with political equality. Possibly, we can form a coalition of people with a different understanding of national identity,’ says US-based Pakistani scholar Shahnaz Rouse
THE New York-based professor of Sociology, Ms Shahnaz Rouse, believes that the Pakistanis need to disentangle religion from the concept of the nation-state. “We cannot continue to evoke religious identity in terms of political structures and processes because that is bound to exclude segments of the population,” says Ms Rouse, who teaches at the Sarah Lawrence College.
When asked to identify the political conundrum in Pakistan, Ms Rouse, who is a Pakistani by birth, said: “In my mind the biggest conundrum facing Pakistan today is how to restore real democracy in Pakistan, such that the people of Pakistan may see themselves as rightful and equal citizens.” The contradiction in Pakistan, in her view, is between the forces of democracy and dictatorship.
Ms Rouse suggests, “I think people can organize around the forces of democracy which have as much to do with economic equality as with political equality; possibly we can amass a coalition of people invested in a different understanding of national identification, one manifested in forms different from those which sanction continued power and authority by a small group/class of people over the vast majority.”
The following are excerpts from the interview:
Q. What in your opinion is the biggest conundrum in Pakistan at present?
A I don’t know if there is one. I think once again, like in time of Ziaul Haq, we have become a frontline state. This has all kinds of implications for Pakistan internally. I think the other conundrum that continues to face Pakistan is that even though militant religious groups are a minority in Pakistan and have always been — they never had any kind of majority in the body politic of Pakistan — yet there has been a transformation in Pakistani politics clearly in the Frontier and partially in Balochistan. They have more clout today than they ever had, so that when we talk about democracy today it becomes more frightening to people, including those who in other times in various ways have been supportive of the idea, because of the whole question of what these forces imply for the full citizenship of Pakistan.
In my mind the biggest conundrum is how we restore real-time democracy in Pakistan in a way that we construct the kind of state which may have no vested interests taking away the democratic rights, and where an average citizen may believe that he has a stake and a voice in the body politic of Pakistan.
Q. So, what’s the resolution?
A. I think it takes some kind of courage and an organizer, or a leader, to take up the challenge. The contradiction in Pakistan is between forces of democracy and dictatorship. I think people can still organize around the forces of democracy which is as much as much about economic equality as it is about political equality.
Q. Is there an Ideal system?
A. One could argue that a democratic system, not only politically democratic but economically democratic, that could bring benefits to all people, might be acceptable.
Q. It seems everyone has his or her take on the constitution acceptable to all. But no one has been able to come up with any ideal system?
A. Well, one can argue that out of all the constitutions Pakistan has had, possibly the 1973 constitution is the best. It has lots of compromises and status layers in it, but is certainly better than the rest. I think women’s status has been compromised in all the constitutions of Pakistan so far. My argument is that to some to some extent we never had a constitutional system in Pakistan which treated all members of polity as being equals. To me, all anti-democratic forces together represent the dictatorship in the country.
In 1971 we lost East Pakistan, under Ziaul Haq we rolled back the whole legal structure, under Musharraf we seem to be unable to deal with the monster created by Zia.
Q. Do you think under Ziaul Haq Pakistan was run like a fundamentalist state?
A. I think it was never a fundamentalist state like Saudi Arabia. But under Zia it was running on two tracks. He was certainly pushing at one level in terms of certain institutional and legal structures which were taking us in that direction, but in order to receive developmental aid there was always a component of other forces that were pushed to the front. So we had a profound deep-rooted contradiction built in the system, with his economic policies taking us in one direction and his political policies taking us in another direction.
Q. But what about Benazir and Sharif, the civilians who were unable to do away with Zia’s legacy?
A. Basically they were not interested. They, too, wanted to draw upon the most conservative of the religious opinion and alienate them entirely. Look at Benazir, she had to, and continues to, cover her head with a dupatta, not that average Pakistani could care less.
Q. Gen Musharraf has spoken out against the blasphemy laws and such other issues, but he keeps insisting that it is up to the parliament to abolish them. Do you think it can be done under the sitting parliament?
A. It seems to me that there were lots of things that Gen Musharraf was able to do without the parliamentary approval, so I think it is interesting that he seeks parliamentary approval for certain things! On the other hand, there are a lot of questions that get raised about the legitimacy of this parliament, and also how the elections were held.
Q. But there are a lot of women in this parliament. Why can’t they do something about it?
A. There is a presumption that having women in the political office means that their interests would be served or represented. I don’t believe that women, any more than men, are a homogeneous group. I think there are divisions among women themselves. We have had women like Margaret Thatcher and Golda Meir who were more male than the males. It doesn’t mean that if there are more women in parliament, the country will necessarily have the laws that are beneficial to all women. There were many women in Ziaul Haq’s Majlis-e-Shura who supported the laws that today we want to repeal.
Q. What about Nawaz Sharif, he also tried to introduce Shariah laws during his second term?
A. He was always a Zia product, and it was only natural that he chose to invest in the same kind of political forces as did his mentor.
Q. While the extremists in Pakistan have been flexing their muscles for long, the majority has preferred to remain silent bystanders. Why?
A. I suppose one can argue that the lack of true, representative democracy in the country is a major reason behind the phenomenon.
Q. What, in your view, is the identity of a Pakistani?
A. We don’t know. I often argue that Pakistan is one of two countries in the world — the other one being Israel — that came into being on the basis of religious identity. That being so, the element of national and religious identities will always be in conflict with each other. Politically, we have to separate those things. We cannot continue to evoke our religious identity in terms of political structures and processes because that is bound to exclude segments of the population.
SHAHNAZ ROUSE heads the Chair, Social Science, at the Sarah Lawrence College, New York. She did her graduation from the famed Kinnaird College, and masters from Punjab University after which she did her MS and Ph.D from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, specializing in historical sociology, with particular emphasis on the mass media, gender and political economy. Mr Rouse has contributed extensively to books and journals on South Asia and the Middle East, and has been a member of the Editorial Committee of the Middle East Research and Information Project (MRIP).
A recipient of grants and fellowships from the Fulbright/Hays Foundation, the Social Science Research Council, the American Institute for Pakistan Studies, and the Council on American Overseas Research Centers, she has been a consultant to the Middle East and North Africa Program of the Social Science Research Council, as well as to the Cairo-based Population Council West Asia and North Africa Office.
Ms Rouse is averse to the publication of her photograph in any newspaper around the world.
