‘The government is engaged in negotiations on the Legal Framework Order merely to gain time ... I have a feeling that talks will not lead to any breakthrough. What will happen beyond that remains a big question,’ warns Prof Ghafoor

PROFESSOR Ghafoor Ahmad, the deputy chief of the Jamaat-i-Islami, says the West is propagating the wrong image of Islam in an effort to attack and usurp resources of small and weak Muslim countries. He believes that the biggest citadel of terrorism is the US-Israel nexus.

On the home front, he maintains that the government is engaging the opposition in talks to merely gain time, and that not much positive is expected to come out of these parleys.

Prof Ghafoor maintains that Gen Pervez Musharraf is wrong in claiming that he is indispensable for the security and integrity of the country, and advises him to have a look at the graveyards that are full of those who had similar notions.

Following are the excerpts of the interview:

Q: The West is propagating that fundamentalism and terrorism are two faces of the same coin. How far this perception is right?

A: After the 9/11 incident the US has started alleging, without any proof, that Osama and Mullah Omar were responsible for that. They have not found any clue, and have not come out with any proof in support of their baseless allegations. But they have unleashed a campaign against the Muslims. After Afghanistan, the US attacked Iraq and also caused widespread and massive destruction there. The presence of the dreaded Weapons of Mass Destruction, again, has proven to be a baseless allegation. If this is not terrorism, nothing is. Worse is the fact that it is planning further such strikes.
 

Q: What about the allegation that religious parties are a reservoir of jihadis operating in Afghanistan and Kashmir?

A: The biggest reservoir of such elements is the US itself. When the former Soviet Union had attacked Afghanistan and had installed its puppets, at that time all the weapons, training, know-how and funding was provided by the US. We were not aware of names like Osama, who is their creation. They (the US) created fake jihadi organizations and trained them.
 

Q: Is it wrong to say that activists of the Jamaat and other MMA components go there?

A: In Kashmir, the Indian military has let loose a reign of terror against innocent people. Families are divided on either side of the Line of Control. So if there is terror against their kith and kin in the occupied Kashmir, then people will go. Jamaat activists have also gone and embraced martyrdom there. To help our oppressed brethren is no crime.

In fact, the US wants Indian hegemony over the entire region, and wants Pakistan to forget Kashmir and the Kashmiris. It also wants to destroy our nuclear capabilities on the pretext of ‘protecting’ it from falling into the hands of the ‘fundamentalists’. These reports are not wrong that the US and Israelis have plans to destroy our nuclear capability. That is why they are maligning our nuclear scientists.
 

Q: Gen Musharraf said in Sargodha recently that Pakistan was threatened most by fundamentalism. What does it indicate?

A: Musharraf is working on the same agenda. Pakistan is an independent country, but, here, FBI and CIA operatives are active. The IMF and the World Bank are present, and the government formulates its policies and budget on their instructions. Innocent people are being arrested on their instructions, and the police are acting in an illegal manner in handing them over to the US. If a foreigner is arrested here, he should be handed over to the country of his origin. None of the arrested people are tried.

It is apparent that Gen Musharraf is under pressure from the US. I am not levelling accusations. On Afghanistan he capitulated on just one phone call and accepted all the seven points of Colin Powell. Powell had thought that out of seven points, Musharraf might agree to three, but he agreed to all the seven, and Pakistan was fully utilized for attack on Afghanistan.

When Karzai came here, he alleged that Mullah Omar and Osama were hiding in Pakistan along with other Al Qaeda men. Like the US, Karzai also handed over a list to Pakistan, demanding that suspects be handed over to Afghanistan. Maybe Musharraf thinks that he can rule with American support only. He definitely lacks public support.
 

Q: Would you describe the MMA as a fundamentalist group?

A: I really don’t know what people mean when they use the term fundamentalism. But I do believe that today the biggest manifestation of fundamentalism is being provided by Israel, which has unleashed a reign of terror against the Palestinian people. It believes that except for the Jews and Israel, no one else has the right to live. They are justifying their action by citing verses from Torah. This is as fundamentalist as it gets.
 

Q: It is said that the ISI helped the MMA to achieve such a massive victory in the polls. What do have to say on that?

A: To level such allegations, one needs some finesse. Before the elections, Gen Musharraf used to say that religious parties, or mullahs, had never got three or four per cent votes, and that he was confident that the MMA would also get not more than that. If the establishment was supporting the MMA, then he would not have used such words against the MMA. On the contrary, ISI operatives manipulated election results in Karachi, and the military was involved in the whole process. There was unprecedented rigging committed by government agencies, but it was all against the MMA, not in favour of it.
 

Q: In the past, the Jamaat had campaigned as an ideological party. But under Qazi Hussain Ahmed, it has adopted a more populist posture. Did that contribute to the victory?

A: It is true to some extent. Every leader has his own way of leading the party. It is true that in the past, campaigns were not conducted on such a large scale. Qazi sahib has tried to make it a populist party, but the main character of the party has not changed.
 

Q: On the issue of MMA victory, there is a perception that anti-Americanism had more to do with it than any socio-economic agenda?

A: If you look at the history of Pakistan, you will notice that religious parties have always played an important role. Their track record of victory in elections and role in the politics of Pakistan are two separate issues. After the loss of East Pakistan, the assembly came into existence in 1972, and the UDF was formed in which religious parties and Wali Khan were together in demanding a constitutional draft. As a result of year-long campaign, the 1973 Constitution was adopted.

Again, in the 1977 PNA campaign religious parties were the main components. We have not yet seen any public campaign as big as the PNA movement. In 1988, when the IJI was formed, religious parties played an important role.

As far as the perception of anti-Americanism is concerned, it may be valid to some extent. But anti-Americanism is not being targeted against the US nation. It is targetted against the policies of the American administration and its terrorism.
 

Q: What about the socio-economic agenda?

A: We had a very comprehensive social agenda that called for the elimination of poverty, illiteracy, etc. But the MMA cannot fully implement the agenda in the province because its resources are limited. The federal government can bring about that change in the system. I fear that the federal government might not cooperate with the NWFP government. In fact, at the behest of the US, the federal government might even try to destabilize the MMA government in the NWFP.
 

Q: But the Centre is involved in a dialogue with the MMA, and there is even talk of including in the NSC the leader of the opposition in the Senate.

A: I believe the government is engaged in negotiations to gain time because on the issue of LFO, Gen Musharraf is adamant on it becoming a part of the Constitution, and has claimed that there can be no negotiations on that. I have a feeling that negotiations will not lead to any solution. What will happen beyond that, remains a big question.

At the moment, under Article 58 (2) (b), General Musharraf can dissolve the National Assembly. But, then, Gen Musharraf will also not be there. It will lead to a big crisis which the country cannot afford at this juncture.
 

Q: What about the growing alienation between provinces over water resource distribution? Has the MMA prepared any technical report to resolve such contentious issues?

A: Institutions have been identified in the Constitution to deal with such situations. But, unfortunately, the Constitution is not being followed. The civil-military bureaucracy is ruling the country, and not much different was the case when Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif were at the helm.

Today, even the National Assembly and the Senate are almost non-functional, and hardly any business is being carried out. There is grave unrest in the country. We now hear in Karachi people openly advocating independence, not the rights of Sindh. In Punjab also, people are denied basic rights. It is wrong to say that Punjab is exploiting or usurping the rights of the other provinces.
 

Q: But many believe that the MMA itself is holding Parliament hostage by agitating on the LFO issue?

A: The country’s Constitution has been mutilated through illegal amendments under the LFO. All powers have been vested in one man, i.e., Gen Musharraf, and Parliament has been reduced to a ceremonial institution. Democracy has not been revived in its true sense. If the military continued with this facade, and kept on ruling indirectly, it would endanger the country’s integrity.

The Supreme Court had not given Gen Musharraf the right to change the character of the Constitution, but he is playing with the destiny of the country, and yet the Supreme Court has not taken suo motu notice of it.

The problems being faced by the country can only be solved when everything and everyone acts according to the Constitution. If someone wields all power and considers he is indispensable for the country, then he is sadly mistaken. The Quad-i-Azam and the Quaid-i-Millat passed away, but Pakistan has survived. If Musharraf thinks that Pakistan’s survival is linked to him remaining in power, then he is mistaken. He should know that all those who are buried in the graveyards also considered themselves indispensable. But life is going on without them, as usual.
 

Q: But the Jamaat had no problems with Gen Ziaul Haq. Why is it different with Gen Musahrraf?

A: I was part of that PNA negotiating team that tried for an agreement with Mr Bhutto. Some people sabotaged those talks. I have written about that, and I don’t want to repeat the names, but I can say with certainty that talks were sabotaged. As a result of that, martial law was imposed. Once martial law is imposed, you can’t remove it by force. Musharraf has also ruled the country for three years as chief of the army staff. He could not be removed by force.

All we are saying now is that when he claims to have restored democracy, he should restore the Constitution. Our demand, therefore, is justified. We had joined Ziaul Haq’s government because he had made it clear that we had to join him before he would give a timeframe for the elections. The moment he gave the date, we came out of the government.
 

Q: Don’t you think acceptance of a military man in civilian garb, in a way, would indicate acceptance of military’s role in politics?

A: We believe that the military’s role is to defend the frontiers of the country, not to rule over it. It is written in the Constitution, and it is part of their oath as well. If Gen Musharraf wants to become the President, then he will have to resign as COAS.
 

Q: Many believe that the MMA, particularly the Jamaat, is pressing the issue because it is hoping for a sort of right-wing coup in the army. Is it so?

A: First, this is simply a baseless allegation. Second, this right-wing, left-wing terminology does not apply on Pakistan, as the Constitution has clearly declared it an Islamic republic.
 

Q: If Gen Musharraf does not give in to the opposition’s demands on the LFO, and decides to dissolve the assemblies, are you in a position to mount a campaign against him?

A: I think Musharraf should himself think whether he can do that. Whatever power he has usurped, he was not entitled to that. His action on October 12, 1999 was an act of treason under Article 6 of the Constitution. If he does it again, it would be an equally immoral and unconstitutional act. He must think of the consequences many times over.
 

Q: What are the impediments that prevent your cooperation with the secular opposition parties?

A: There are differences on many issues, but we have agreement on one point; that the Constitution must be protected and revived in the form in which it existed before the military takeover.
 

Q: Recently, we witnessed a fresh outbreak of student violence in Karachi. What was the reason?

A: This is not a new thing. The MQM’s attitude is that it does not want other political parties to work in Sindh, especially in the urban areas. In the educational institutions, its student wing, the APMSO, considers the Islami Jamiat Tulba its rival. I am glad that the government quickly controlled the situation.
 

Q: There also seems to be a tiff between the MQM and the Jamaat on the local government issue.

A: Their (MQM) effort is to undermine the system. The matter was so grave that the President had to visit Karachi and address the provincial cabinet, and he cautioned against interference in the system. Prime Minister Jamali also emphasized this. The MQM had boycotted local body elections, and if the city nazim, who belongs to the Jamaat, has done some work for the city, what is there to grumble about?
 

Q: In view of the existing power structure and the role of the establishment, do you see any prospects for sustainable democracy?

A: I don’t see any. The civil and military bureaucracy must realize they have been ruling the country for the past 55 years directly or indirectly, but today literacy and political awakening are on the rise amid mounting differences among the provinces. If things continue like this, Pakistan’s integrity will be in danger. If we insist on not learning due lessons from what happened in the erstwhile East Pakistan, history may well repeat itself, and we will have only ourselves to blame.