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Indo-Pak friendship: The phoenix without wings


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Arts and sports have played an immense role in propagating peace across the world. Artists, philanthropists and sports celebrities have often proved to be the only people to have tried to change the status quo of the hostile relations between many countries such as India and Pakistan. Whether we talk about candlelight vigil at Wagah-Attari border, participation of Pakistani sportsmen in Indian Premiere League (IPL) or artists traveling across the border to share their work with people residing in both the countries, their efforts to develop the camaraderie between millions of estranged Indians and Pakistanis is endless and many a time beyond belief.

However, it is extremely unfortunate that the aforementioned people are always the first to be singled out whenever the tensions between India and Pakistan intensify. Last week nine Pakistani players, who were to participate in Hockey India League (HIL), were sent back home because of the mounting tensions at the Line of Control (LoC).It is also being speculated that Pakistan’s women cricket team may not be able to participate in the upcoming World Cup because of the tragic events which resulted in untimely deaths of Indian and Pakistani soldiers. Indian politicians, enraged with the situation, urged Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to take strictest action against Pakistani authorities. Some even demanded for “10 heads from Pakistan” for the alleged beheading of an Indian soldier whereas others speculated that certain radical elements were behind the execution.

Although what happened at the LoC can only be described as deplorable and detestable, however, acts of a certain individual or group should not be taken as cue to blame all Pakistanis as most of them bear no ill will towards Indians.

Sujal Tirpal, an Indian from Mumbai said, “It is most unfortunate that many people in India still consider all Pakistanis to be terrorists. It is a common phenomenon especially in North India where people refuse to believe that Pakistanis can see Indians or India progressing. What most of us fail to realize is that when we stereotype people on the basis of their nationalities, we become prejudiced and offensive in our own thoughts.”

He went on to add that, “People who possess such feelings and thoughts for fellow human beings, be it Pakistanis or Indians, can easily resort to the most evil means and kill indiscriminately without any remorse. If the educated people are unable to understand the difference between innocent Pakistanis, who play no part in jeopardizing the existence of India, and savage militants then we all should just crawl back to our caves.”

However, some Pakistanis and Indians differ from Tirpal’s opinions and believe that if an attack is launched from either side of the border then showing mercy towards any individual is considered against the basic rules of patriotism.

An Indian from Delhi on condition of anonymity said, “I completely agree with the ideology of Shiv Sena and it is our responsibility as Indians to keep Pakistanis away from India. They have never been one of our well-wishers. They attacked us in 1965, 1971, 1999, 2001 and then again in 2008. Sometimes they kill our soldiers and on other occasions they kill innocent civilians. I strongly believe that most Pakistanis are not peace loving and are always plotting against Indians or India.”

“Pakistan’s army, rulers and general public are all against India. We have suffered immensely over the past several decades because of their hidden vendetta against our state. I don’t want Pakistanisportsmen, artists, businessmen or politicians coming to our country and ruining our peace,” he added.

Reciprocating equally to the hostile sentiments of the aforementioned individual Salman Abbasi, a Pakistani from Lahore said, “instead of harping on and on about peace and what good it will bring to the South-Asian region, we all should just accept the fact that India and Pakistan can never become friendly nations. We are poles apart and I think we should break all ties with them because they keep on blaming Pakistan for everything that goes wrong on their border or in their country without having the decency to share any substantial evidence with us. They have been blaming us for over six decades now and I really do not think that they are interested in moving on to build better relations with us.”

Listening to all the negative comments I just could not stop thinking about why is it so difficult for us to believe that India and Pakistan can put the past behind and embark on a journey of healthy relations? Why is it unfathomable for many of us that we truly belong to the same race and are exactly similar in many ways? Is Indian blood any different for Pakistani blood? Why is it so easy for us to give up on each other without even thinking twice?

I refuse to believe that majority of Indians and Pakistanis endorse some of the negative feedback that I received. I know that most of us have positive feelings towards each other and stand united on various fronts. My thoughts were positively reinforced when I read a news report about Indian women protesting against the killings of Shia Muslims in Quetta. Simultaneously my views were once again proven true when young students from India and Pakistan met in New Delhi and vowed to spread peace.

Had armed forces and politicians from both sides of the border acted as gracefully and prudently as other civilians, the situation could have been controlled. It is important for all of us to understand that the people responsible for all the bloodshed do so to serve their own personal interests. They are neither friends of Pakistan nor foes of India. Their only motivation is power and money and by falling into their trap, every time they fuel violence, we just make their task easier. Although it is very difficult to control emotions over the loss of innocent lives, however, by giving rise to situations which may result in further loss of human lives, we prove to be irresponsible. Unless we give peace real chance, radical elements will continue to capitalize on our sentiments and turn us against each other.


Faiza Mirza
The writer is a Reporter at

The views expressed by this writer and commenters below do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of the Dawn Media Group.

Comments (347) Closed

Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 07:15am
The famous stars in Bollywood are muslims starting from Yusuf khan to salman khan. And please bollywood may hate pakistan but it doesn't hate muslims. Pakistan was the worst thing that happened to Islam. may allah give you wisdom, you left your own country to settle in Canada
Nina Jan 21, 2013 08:57pm
Thank goodness I don't share a country with you, though I pity the poor people who do!
AHA Jan 21, 2013 11:35pm
No common border yes. But then no one cared about the sovereignty of Poland in those days. Poland was the freeway for the European armies from various countries.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 10:51pm
exactly right. They are more concerned about balochistan than the human right abuses in their occupied Kashmir. We are gettign fed up with the apologetic tone of our writers. Why did she not mention Siachen, bangladesh etc when talking about why pakistanis do not trust india.
Punjabi Power Jan 21, 2013 09:12pm
Faiza, even very liberal (India loving) people like me are totally disillusioned by peace between India and Pak. Pakistanis have never forgiven India for Kashmir and Indians (mainly Hindus) never forgave Pakistanis for ill treatment of Hindus by their ancestors. The fact is India is not going to give up Kashmir so why not Pakistanis try to work with India to improve the economic and political situation in occupied Kashmir and try to bring both side of Kashmir together economically and spiritually. Indian (Hindus) should remember that in 1000 years of Muslim raj of India went without a single Gujarat like incident. Mughal and Lodhis protected minorities fairly. The Afghan invaders who attacked Hindu temples and destroyed their cities have nothing in common with Pakistani Muslims who were converted to Islam by Sufi saints. Pakistanis have anything in common with ME, but much more with Indians. Why Pakistani Punjabi and Indians Punjabi befriend without any problem and they never have a baggage between them? One should study the relationship pattern of Punjabis are make a model based on that.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:29pm
The day there is a long march in india against attrocities in Kashmir, killing of Pakistani soldier across LOC, shootign down of Pakistan navy plane from across teh border, killing 22, against occupation of Siachen where my own cousing= was killed by indians We will start to believe that there is hope and not just hatred oozing from across the border
P N Eswaran Jan 22, 2013 05:59am
The process of establishing peace between the two countries is ahead of its time. Pakistan is a country with multi-polar power centers and where nobody is in control. Talking peace at this time with it can be a pass time but not a fruitful endeavor. With a massive historical baggage much more conducive conditions are required. Unfortunately, Pakistan does not seem to have even the basic condition for transacting any serious matter.
Srini (Dallas,TX) Jan 21, 2013 07:56pm
Personally, I want peace .Many of my friends dislike Pakistan and I always tried to defend Pakistan in arguments with them as I see many peace loving Pakistanis on dawn and on internet. However even I was infuriated to see the news of beheading of Indian soldier. It is expected that some soldiers die in the casual firings occur at LoC but there are always some protocols that you need to follow and beheading is big offense that could technically be made reason for war. Pakistan always knows India is never in favor of third party involvement in Kashmir nor LoC, so Pakistan asking for involve third party is redundant. Issue stems from the fact that there is huge disconnect between Pakistan Govt and military whereas in Inida both govt and military are always on same page. In this case, most likely a militant organization with military support performed this heinous act for which Pak govt has no clue. So how do you slove this? Even peace loving Indians are suspecting Pakistan now. This "disconnect" is very obvious in many other issues. IMHO, Pakistan govt and military should be on the same page even if the issue is against India - atleast, Indians dont see double standards. Peace will be far far away if govt says one thing and (military) does diferrently. However I still hope for peace some day.
Amit Jan 22, 2013 05:41am
@Amna - you do not have compassion for Pakistani soldiers? What you are saying is be at war with India. OK - who gets killed Soldiers from both side of the border. Forget Indian Soldiers. Think about the Pakstani Soldiers and their families - why should they die because of your ego, one-upmanship, and your eagerness to prove a (theoretical) Point (i dont mean particularly u but people like from both side of the border). Cool down and then think.....Positive sentiments are good Negative sentiments like hatred, jealousy, anger turns a Human Being into an ANIMAL.
desi Jan 22, 2013 05:47am
Good one Roy. yes it is indeed true that most muslims in India thank Allah for their luck. At least there is progress in India and focus is away from religion which answers a lot of problems.
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 05:16am
Ahmed Sultan Sahib: AOA CIA World Factbook India urban population: 30% of total population (2010) rate of urbanization: 2.4% annual rate of change (2010-15 est.) Pakistan urban population: 36% of total population (2010) rate of urbanization: 3.1% annual rate of change (2010-15 est.) Other sources give a wider gap. Google for more. Laughs best he who laughs the last. Wassalam
amir Jan 22, 2013 04:46am
lol @ both amna and kaly.....falling for the trap the writer of this article advises us to avoid.
abc Jan 21, 2013 09:12pm
There is no common border between germany and russia. please refer to the european map before comenting. Example should have been germany and france, who share a hostile past, ut now they are friendly neighbours.
prakhar2009 Jan 22, 2013 05:36am
dude you seriously need to read G.K. I mean from where do you get those facts. Your country has no law and order, for most of the time it was controlled by Army. Now a failed government is present in Pakistan. The judgments of Supreme Court are not followed which is a mockery of whole of rule of law. You gave shelter to Osama and now justify that you were not aware of it. And regarding Pakistan wants peace and all. I do not blame innocent people of Pakistan, but it is the government which has sown the seeds of hatred in people's mind. Pakistan attacked India many times, crossed LOC. India well just defended and never attacked. We came till lahore in 1971 but then returned. We are a peaceful nation, we never intruded and captured territory there. And because you are a failed state your people, artist, sportsperson and comedians wants to come India for a better life. There is no IPL in Pakistan, Indian Film Industry is any day famous from Lollywood. Sincere Indian
deepak Jan 22, 2013 05:24am
We don't want to be friend with Pakistan...All people in this world are not friend but they in the same way we can live without friendship....Live and let others live .....Since my childhood I am seeing Aman kI Asha ...and Tamasha from both sides ...who cares about Pakistan...We have enough things in India for joy and sorrow that we don't want any unnecessary trouble.. India is great country that's why we are in good condition even we have all kind of religion..People living peacefully. I live in Lucknow where half population is of Muslims still I haven't seen any kind of disturbance in my life. In India people is trying to get out of their difficulties by doing hard , that's why Indian middle class is increasing day by we don't really care about peace with Pakistan..but as a neighbor I want Pakistan to remain stable..
Mujammi ul Jan 22, 2013 04:39am
I am a Bangladeshi and I hate india as much as Pakistani do. We were better before so called liberation. Now we are slaves to indian. Just like all indian neighbours, we too, dislike indian attitude towards us.
Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 04:38am
Ever heard a name called Aurangzeb
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:10pm
Did you imagine the extermination of Sindhis and balochis all by yourself or did your media help you with it...Any way you have a very exceptional mind it seems to create a new reality and then belive in it as well.
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 05:29am
And this urbanization gap will widen by 2030 from 6.9% to 9.1%. Pakistan 37.0 (2010) 49.8 (2030) India 30.1 (2010) 40.7 (2030)
H S Roy Jan 22, 2013 05:04am
Going by the comments made by lots of people here, the perception in Pakistan seems to be that only Hindus in India hate Pakistan. I have lots of Muslim friends. They all thank their good fortune that their grandparents didn't migrate during partition. They are very much in love with India's pluralistic diverse culture and despise the fanatical mob-infested society you live in. PS: When your illustrious countrymen like Ajmal Kasab let loose his guns in crowded places, or the LET sets off a bomb, its not only Hindus who get killed.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:18pm
"The percentage of peace-wanting Indian is much higher than those in Pakistan"... LOL who told you that. Just by looking at indian comments here and on your own websites it seems 99% of indians hate Pakistan as there is no tomorrow.
Dev Jan 22, 2013 04:41am
I think in this particular episode, everyone in India was disturbed at the nonchalance of the Pakistani reaction to the beheading. Even one word of regret at the event would have made a huge difference, but instead, there were people mocking the shocked attitude of Indians to the events. The suggestion to "grow up", were not received well, to put it mildly. And, these reactions were from members of the establishment, no less. This was perceived as rank callousness. Everyone understands that a live border will see incidents, and even casualties. But people were completely puzzled at the callous attitudes of even high-ranking officials, and some reaction was inevitable. I think, in the end, cultural links being put on hold was much preferable to a militarily response, everyone would agree.
anonymous indian Jan 21, 2013 11:36pm
The only way we in India will get derailed is if you implode and the remnants of what will be left of you washes over our shoreline. Most Indians dread this scenario and that is why you will find this narrative across the border in India -"we want a stable and prosperous Pakistan". We saw a trailer of this very scenario in 26/11 when your government (if at all it exists) claimed that they had no control over non-state actors like Kasab who landed illegally on our shores. We do not care what happens on your western border, however the eastern border is of concern to us for this very reason.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:45pm
Saudi oil was discovered only 50 years ago, Islam has been around for 1400 years. When will we hear a reasonable argument from an indian instead of pure mindless hatred.
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 07:56pm
Patriotic: Greetings 44% Pakistanis think that OBL was wronged because he was
Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 04:32am
Hahaha. writing a big essay like comment doesn't make you great. It just highlights your frustration. n urbanization, Pakistan is ahead of India. LOL, ROFL.
NASAH (USA) Jan 22, 2013 04:01am
Akil Akhtar -- you call AHA a 'traitor' for negating the Muslim delusion that one Muslim is equal to 10 Hindus in valor -- this Hindu-kush delusion is actually a Muslim killer -- because Pakistan fought three wars under this delusion and lost all three -- with 90 thousands Pakistani prisoners -- no wonder you call yourself Akil - not Aqil.
Neo Jan 22, 2013 03:00pm
incorrect.. the larger sections still considered india as enemy but still would be eager to visit india.. same as, i hate US from my heart but i will be the first in the consulate queue to get its visa ;)
Gujesh Jan 22, 2013 06:03am
A Pakistani General is reported to have said that soon after independence, Pakistan started buying weapons fearing that India might attack Pakistan in future, but after one decade they were convinced that India never had such intention. In all wars, Pakistan intially blamed India but admitted their misadventure later on. Ditto for Kashmir. Mumbai attack was also blamed on India and handiwork of India media. But now they say it was done by Pakistanis. A Pakistani Judge approved first military rule on the basis of "principle of necessity" which was used to justify all subsequent military regimes. The same judge admitted after two decades that it was the gravest mistake of his life. After 65 years of partition, many pakistanis now feel that is is better to have good relations with India and fate of Kashmiris should be left to Kashmiris only. And I am sure after few months or years, Pakistanis will condemn the incident of beheading an Indian soldier. If " batti der se jalti hai" is maturity, Pakistanis are really mature.
A Kasmiri Jan 22, 2013 04:08am
India did one mistake to go to UN ... not again. How many problems solved by UN? 65K dead bodies in Syria - What UN is doing! Syria is another example - Kashmiris should learn i.e. UN can never solved any problems. UN dead when Pakistan signed simla agreement! Read world history.
Rahul Jan 22, 2013 04:22am
Sorry to puncture the crux of your argument. 89% of all Moslems in undivided India were converts primarily from lower castes. Punjabi Moslem are mostly converted Dalits or banias. However, I don't agree with your thesis. It was the upper-class privileged Syed(ish) Aligarhian UP Moslem salariyat which spearheaded the Pakistan movement. The so-called lower-caste Muslims of UP (julahas, nais etc) still live as proud citizens of UP. Please don't malign pasmanda muslims. They are far more progressive than the upper-crust so called Syed, Irani Turani types, most of whom migrated to Pakistan.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:04pm
It is just a few greedy artists and sportsmen who see dollars inspite of being treated poorly by the tolerant and liberal indians.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 10:57pm
Urdu speaking Mohajirs are the most racist people in pakistan, only a Punjabi like me who was Born and brought up in karachi would know. MQM spread its power on the absis of spreading hatred agaisnt Punjabis and Pathans in karachi and they are killing them to this day. An Urdu speaking will never employ a Punjabi or a Pathan....
adityadasmenon Jan 22, 2013 04:25am
Dear Faiza I truely support your articles. You have the godly gifted talent to understand the scenario and depit in mindblowing words.......What ever be the actions / realities behind, I love the ordinary pakistanies.....and very much................Love - Aditya das menon from India
Asif Jan 22, 2013 04:25am
Being the Neigbouring countries both the countries should play thier role towards betterment. I have observed that there is sever lack of Maturity in the politicians of India, who never wants to see the friendly relationship with Pakistan.
Kaly Jan 22, 2013 04:25am
We too want no link with you people who are so rigid knowing very well that once upon a time you all were hindus and India is your ancestor's place not arabia....
A Kasmiri Jan 21, 2013 10:56pm
To all proud Pakistani's, Justification for 1971 - It was right thing to do. It was right to save Bangalis from genocide. So it was done. And Bengalis are far more independent and happy. Answer to all your above question is very simple and just in one word - Baluchistan! You can NEVER undo Bangladesh BUT you are loosing Baluchistan. And Insallah it will be done. You can eat your nuclear. Russia disintegrated with 10K nuclear! So will be the Pakistan! Khuda tum kahan ho? Please help Shais...
Cyrus Howell Jan 21, 2013 08:22pm
Pakistanis and Indians are not going to lose their attitudes. The poorer people are, the worse they behave. It is easier to be a nice guy with $50 million in the bank than it is to have a bank account with $5. What could be, and what should be, have been debated over and over and over, time and time again. People don't change just like a poor husband won't change. From the Indian perspective Pakistanis cannot be rehabilitated. The fact is most of the wealthier Pakistanis are gentlemen. The uneducated no one wants around them. In polite society it is necessary for people to have social conversations and smell good. For Indians poverty is a blessing. For Pakistanis poverty is a curse. It is a philosophical debate.
Rao Jan 22, 2013 12:13pm
""Mughal and Lodhis protected minorities fairly"".....must have read in Pakistani textbooks....In India you find huge temple complexes older than 1000 years in southern part, but such temples can hardly be found in the northern part because they were destroyed during the Mughal call that fair treatment...LOL
Gujesh Jan 22, 2013 04:17am
If few thousands are killed by militants in Pakistan, don't bother. Because percentage to total population is negligible
A Kasmiri Jan 22, 2013 04:01am
India is VERY clean on every front!
A Kasmiri Jan 22, 2013 04:01am
Timely news article for you from BBC
challa Jan 21, 2013 06:49pm
Pakistan has to show it's honesty towards India. Pakistan is always trying to derail India. Come on Pakistan ,,grow have to take the initial step of peace because It's always your fault,,
Imran Jan 21, 2013 08:59pm
You have partly answered the question yourself. The larger sections of the population have no desire at all to visit India.
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 04:23am
Ip: Greetings I have explained the origin of this ditty in an earlier post. Your repeat objection is politically motivated. Rather than fight about its existence or not, think about its validity. It makes sense to me, and more so when I read comments on this board from Indians and Pakistanis. Best wishes
Imran Jan 21, 2013 08:17pm
My friend it looks like you have lost a dear one either in Mumbai attacks or on the border with Pakistan. Thats probably why education has failed to eradicate your hatred.
Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 04:36am
Thats why you are tought to hate India in schools
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 04:27am
The alternatives costs more. The difference between 7% and 6% growth over 65 years is 2:1 compounded.
naresh c. Jan 21, 2013 03:15pm
While most Pakistanis aren't terrorists, most of them allow terrorism to occur in their midst and in their name. Mumbai attacks was an unacceptable terrorist attack and Pakistanis did not implicate a single person and most likely, the people caught will end up being freed. In fact, most of Pakistani media (with the exception of Pervez Hoodboy) and government blamed RAW for Mumbai attacks! Go back and read the editions of Dawn or watch the archived Pakistani media on youtube, There needs to be punishment for Mumbai attacks. In fact, most Pakistanis were against hanging of Kasab, even though right after the Mumbai attacks, they called him a RAW agend. Heads should have rolled for housing Osama Bin Laden. All Germans were not Nazis but they were guilty of allowing Nazism to occur in their name. All Pakistanis are not terrorists but they are guilty of allowing terrorism in their name.
alec Jan 21, 2013 06:51pm
No use talking to Pak civilians as finally the Army decides everything & most Jihadis do the killings to go to heaven to enjoy life which is well known --alex
Proud Pakistani Jan 21, 2013 07:02pm
would you mind justifying the 1971 Indian Govt and Army's direct and indirect involvement to disintegrate Pakistan? i.e. Bangladesh now? Would you please like to elaborate as to why a psychological campaign to infiltration into Bangladeshi minds especially youth to hate Pakistan was instigated through media? Would also like to define as to why Separatist elements and terrorist groups are being supported by India? Would you also tell as to why through a well conceived plan water through Kashmir into Pakistan is being reduced? Why Sindh Tas declaration is being covertly violated? Would you also tell to why the Indian media projects and sensationalizes in a negative way every development in Pakistan nuclear program or for that matter army? The simple technique used by Indian Govt and Media is childish, its like "ok the one who blows the horn louder is the winner" and thats what you always hype - before you find any evidence. And Two Nation theory would stand as it is, just as your theory and dream of a greater India. if you want to move towards Peace, then i must tell you.. it would be peace only when you stop blaming. There cant be any accord on unequal terms. Dont expect us to abide by the vague conditions you pose onto us. You demand us to assure you that no terror attack be conducted from Pakistani soil? I demand YOU assure that "No spy operations that disintegrate Pakistan and create unrest be conducted from Indian Govt and intelligence agencies be conducted in Pakistan."
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 02:00pm
Rakesh ji: Namaste I was born in India and visited it again in 1991. Was floored by hospitality, and felt no anti-Pakistani feeling whatsoever. Trade and travel is the key to Pak-India peace. Ancient Hinduism is the religion closest to Mohammedan Islam, because both revolve around the unity of creation. However, Indians polluted their religion with caste divisions just as Muslims have theirs with dissension. Gandhi-ji tried to reform India by elevating Dalits to Hari-jans, but you know what happened to him. Muslim reformers mete the same fate. But Caste Hinduism is a religion of origin foreign to India. The only true Indian religion alive today is Buddhism
Punjabi Power Jan 21, 2013 08:58pm
Punjabi is a Master race, read the history of Punjab, Indian Punjabi are mastering India and Pak Punjabi are ruling Pakistan and Punjabi as a whole ruling world. In USA, Europe the largest and wealthist group of immigrant is from Punjab. I am sorry, it is in our blood. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was the only raja who was not concurred by Brits and Sikh forces were betrayed by sold out Hindus or today Punjabi will be ruling entire Sub Continent.
Akmal Jan 22, 2013 01:37pm
People should realize that peace is the only option, if we want to progress and improve. If major European powers can kill each other in the millions in the first half of the 20th century, and still have peace in the second half. Why is it not possible for Pakistan and India to do the same after 65 years of hostility. Both countries need to re-evaluate their respective policies regarding each other.
A Kasmiri Jan 21, 2013 10:48pm
Javed, There is a way Pakistan can get Kashmir (minus Jammu and Ladakh) i.e. please collect all the 65 million muslims from India. Or stanch Pakistani supporters in OIC can take us or all weather friend China! Because 'Two nation theory' is the culprit of all the hate. Another way is all out Nuclear war. Who survives lives! Till then Kashmir is only serving to Pak ISI/Military and Politicians! So True muslims go and use nuclear and take Kashmir! Few heads will not help!
Kt Jan 21, 2013 11:20pm
Don't show you ignorance to people, Muslim ruler use to kill Hindus in 100,000s. Plz don't believe me, check some international authors on subject. During rules of Muslim approximately 80 million people were killed in 700 years. Now compare that with Gujarat, which was approx 1200 Muslims and 800 Hindus.....
True Indian Jan 21, 2013 08:33pm
i am not interested in article and nor in below foolish discussion, but i observed one thing that many Indian reads Dawn news paper, so i think this paper is good and present fair look on news, but i feel it is pak paper and more Indians are reading and i have seen that they like or dislike the comments, if it is in Indian favor we have more votes. but i always want good friendship with Pakistan, but i would like to suggest that i think first Pak should educate their people i think very few people understand English there,as few paki reads English newspaper, so first do not waste money in Army and to prepare terrorist and give education to your people...and at least first you compete with Indian in your new paper only where we Indian have more votes,,,so first compete and later dream what you want....we Indian are ambitious and be frankly i never think that we have competition with Pak, we have competition with China, please first compare GDP and Foreign direct investment with India and then you can talk below nonsense.... i think it is enough for today..god bless your Pak....Jai Hind
Alvin (India) Jan 22, 2013 01:59pm
Faiza, as much as i appreciate your feelings and sentiments for a amicable indo-pak atmosphere, i don't see it to be happening.. India has suffered immensely because of the hatred across the border and every time we offer a olive branch, we been stabbed in the back.. take 1965, 1971, 1999, 2008 and 2011 for instances.. Had it been any other country(US/Israel), i am sure the response would have been very direct with real consequences.. and i am sure the entire world would have been on our side and sympathetic to our causes which i believe they still are... I've seen comments here that there are no evidence of any pakistani wrongdoings in india. these guys got to be kidding me.. either they are ignorant souls or simply the ones who often live in denial mode.. the evidence captured, traced and documented is beyond any doubts.. accepted in the international courts.. with multiple foreign agencies relying and authenticating them... have a look with a clearer view, and you will see for yourself... anyways pakistani is reaping what it has sown all these years now... so its imperative that they work on it or eventually won't have anything to defend. I think problem lies on the pakistan side and their will to take the peace initiative ahead.. the political leadership in india has already done its part by not acting aggressively to any of the provocative advances during all these years, even when it cost them their image, public anger and opposition threats on instability... pakistan has to do more... the entire world knows and believes the epicenter of terrorism is inside pakistan.. the terror camps in muridke and muzzafarbad are counter productive and ploughing seeds of hatred, barbarism and religious fundamentalism and extremism.. these are not needed for a healthy growth of pakistan.. for a bright future of their yound generation. If they can't understand such simple things, i don't see any place for peace process between the neighbors.
Arun Jan 22, 2013 04:35am
You write that "acts of a certain individual or group should not be taken as cue to blame all Pakistanis as most of them bear no ill will towards Indians". And you know that the Government of Pakistan represents Pakistan. When it does nothing about the beheading of an Indian soldier, and does nothing about the Mumbai attacks, and does nothing about the terrorist training camps in Pakistan, why should not all Pakistanis get blamed? The reason Pakistani politicians do nothing is because the public does not hold them accountable. As a Pakistani citizen who finds terrorist attacks on India a bad thing, what have you done to get your Government to act against terrorists? I am glad the Indian Govt had the spine to send the Pakistani players back.
Romi Jan 21, 2013 07:11pm
Please don't take it personally, but once the Saudi oil runs out in a hundred years, Islam will fade away into oblivion. Unless it reforms and modernizes itself. Please read the writing on the wall.
Ip Jan 21, 2013 07:14pm
Abbastoronto: I've seen this so-called "Hindi ditty" being bandied about in Dawn's comment space time and again, most probably by you, since you are a prolific commentator here, responding with your unique brand of logic and conspiracy theories. I've spent most of my 37 odd years in India, and lived and worked in various parts of northern and southern India. And NEVER have I heard this preposterous "ditty" from anyone, even those whose native tongue is Hindi. Please, you're not on a Canadian blog's forum. These are Indians and Pakistanis you're conversing with. I'd suggest that you avoid trying to fool native Indians about their own language with some figment of your imagination.
Rakesh Jan 21, 2013 09:34pm
@Abbastoronto I love your theory of the agrarian religion vs trader religion. It amuses me! :-) I don't agree with your theory at all, but I'll respect your right to have an opinion. However, the tone of your comments give me the idea that you feel the agrarian system is somehow inferior to the trader model. Well a little reasoning, ( I am sure an erudite man like you, who can enfilade fabulous theories, is very much capable of some rational thinking), will make it clear to you that no society in any era can live without food. So your theory implies that Hinduism, by virtue of being an agrarian religion (I disagree completely, because the basis of Hinduism is very diverse, just like any other religion) will always be important, because humans cannot live without food! And this I say from common sense and I am aware that I am no expert on Hinduism or any religion for that matter. Besides I am an atheist, who respects all religions and the right to have a belief (or the lack of it). I feel all religions have something to teach us, if we have an open mind and a pure heart. Although it is only my belief that there is no God, I am confident that even if there is one, on the judgement day, I will come out a clean man, because I have a clear conscience. I'm certainly not afraid of God. Agrarian or Trader! Good Luck to you. May peace prevail! :-) :-) :-)
waqaralam Jan 21, 2013 07:38pm
You are welcome.
Sachin Jan 21, 2013 07:31pm
It is all about leadership in either country. Unfortunately, most leaders like mushraf/qadri have been blind, unwanting to see or set the peace route. Similarly, in India, our leaders are fake 'seculars' whose sole interests are their selfish motives. Who really cares for peace. May God blesses these countries with 'real' secular system. Pakistan people should detest terrorism, even when those terrorists are trained for Kashmir. And Indian leadership should treat all religions as 'equal'. Not look for Muslim votes and soothe them every now and them, like our mulayam/laloo do often. What the great the yadava's done for Muslims except wanting their vote banks? Never to miss our INC (Inter-National-Congress by Sonia). Secular! Pakistan should come clean on 2008/11 attacks. And come clean on Kasab or forget peace! And we all are disqualified to comment on religions. All religions are good as long as holy books didn't preach WAR against other religions. We interpret and wage wars, and in the end tend to play bigger role than prophet or any devta!
Andy S Jan 22, 2013 07:11am
Living in the Gulf, I meet a lot of Pakistanis from all walks of life, day in and day out. This Indian-Pakistani interaction is normal in this part of the world as many of you know. Regarding the so called 're-orientation of Pakistan' towards Arabia away from its South Asian roots, I have failed to see any great evidence of it among the Pakistanis I met. If anything, they reinforce their South Asian heritage and this is especially so among the Pathans. I know that a few hundred individuals cannot represent the whole population but this is what I see. If anything, the better educated Pakistanis tend to be more antagonistic towards India than the 'blue collar' workforce (for want of a better term). My wife, who is not Indian, tells me stories of Pakistanis in her office who are well spoken, with excellent manners and top-notch professionalism, who turn all dour and uncompromising on India. They sometimes explain this as the result of they being 'more Arabic' than 'Indian', which they sort of equate to be being better in their minds. But this is a rare minority in my view.
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 07:37pm
Waseem Sahib: AOA Right on. 1. Before any nation thrust itself on the world stage it took care of its neighbourhood first. England triumphed in Europe (1815) before building its Asian/African Empire. America first made the Americas off-bound for others (1825 Monroe Doctrine) and then its North (Canada) and South (Mexico) and then became a world power. Russia became the Soviet Union only after neutralizing threat from its many neighbours. China routed first America in Korea then in Viet-Nam, and India too, before assuming its place on the world stage. Iran has global ambitions only because it is the only country in Asia that has no enemies any more (thanks to the Americans) on its borders. India is walled in the north by Himalayas, on the West by Pakistan, and in the East by China. Only the south is open for unchecked expansion and that is water. Not a good basis for trade and rapid growth. As far as its rivalry with Pakistan, India is also handicapped. 2. Globalization and Free trade favours Pakistan since Islam is a trading faith, and Hinduism is agrarian. In Trade, Pakistan can expand both to West Asia and Central Asia as well as China unchecked. 3. As you very well put, India
mohammed Jan 22, 2013 01:53pm
We all know the value of the Kashmiri's to India, your human rights record in that region speaks for itself. The fact is that most Kashmiris do not want to remain with India, they support union with Pakistan or independence. While geo strategic factors influence both India and Pakistan, the fact is that if Kashmir
G.A. Jan 22, 2013 01:18pm
Generalizations and blanket statements against a whole nation comes from people who haven't fully evolved yet into humans. It's an instinctive fear. Much like how animals fear even when humans are trying to help them.
Tanveer, Sialkoti Jan 21, 2013 07:56pm
Lower caste converts who were subjugated for centuries in the subcontinent saw a chance to raise their ugly head with the help of the British and they for sure knew that we Punjabis and the other ethnic people of Pakistan(Sindhis,Pakhtoons etc) have nothing in common with them but used Islam as a tool and started the drama of hate which is still continuing.These Urdu speakers which itself is nothing but Hindi with some Arabic words and Arabic script were used as a tool to consolidate their voice and started the idea of a Muslim homeland.Though the majority community of the subcontinent were neither holy nor spotless in their treatment of the minorities,the paranoia was created by those lower caste Urdu speakers(imagine lower caste marginalised Christians of the subcontinent asking for a homeland saying they are British).They created a hysteria and the maximum bloodshed was in my Punjab where the Punjabi fabrics of harmony as Punjabis were destroyed forever.Honestly speaking I feel comfortable with an Indian Punjabi than a Mohajir as we share the same language and culture,The Islam factor led to Kashmir and it finally led us to an endless conflict.The root cause of instability in the subcontinent-Mohajirs. Pakistan also is unstable thanks to the Mohajirs-usurped the Sindhis,turf war with the Pakhtoon brothers at Karachi,Altaf Hussain,you name it and they are the devils and they lower the beauty quest of Pakistan as much as the Southern Indians lowers the beauty quest of the Indians.Long live Punjab,the original land of the pure.
anonymous indian Jan 21, 2013 08:53pm
The fact is that generations in both countries have moved so far apart ideologically that they no longer share the romanticism of an earlier generation that came into existence post partition. The kind of enthusiasm that Manmohan Singh (considering he is one of the last remaining politicians in India from the pre-partition era) has in building bridges with Pakistan through the peace process is not shared by majority of Indians most of whom were born after the 1990's. Most of that enthusiasm of Manmohan Singh was because he was born in Pakistan and therefore shared an emotional connect. The fact is demographically 65% of India today is below the age of 35 and almost 70% is below the age of 40-45. This change is also being reflected by both national parties in India (and some regional parties like Mulayam's party in UP projected son Akhilesh Yadav in the state elections) which are trying to project a young leadership that can address the aspirations of a new, young and restless generation.This generation is completely culturally disconnected from their Pakistani counterparts. The point is, this is a reality that romantics on either side of the border have to accept. Till date diplomacy between the two countries has been based on emotions (baggage of partition really...) rather than hard facts and that is why there have been wild swings from friendship to hostility. This is not going to be the same in future with a new generation, at least in India, taking over politics and bureaucracy.
Imran Jan 21, 2013 08:52pm
You are clearly very interested in this article and discussion, thats why you are here. There are a lot of educated people in Pakistan, so many that they write very interesting articles in Dawn and other websites, which you Indians flock to read and comment on.
Ahmer Jan 21, 2013 08:13pm
Such articles and the hollow sentiments in the comments means nothing. The peace between the two countries is not possible so long as the suffering Kashmiri people are denied their political and human rights.
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 08:31pm
LOL What has Saudi oil to do with Islam? What has a country whose name is based on a Tribe (of Saud) has to do with a religion that obliterated Tribalism? In fact exactly when the oil runs out that Islam becomes relevant. Islam is a religion conceived in land-poor, water-poor, resource-poor advanced trading society of Arabia. When Islam was brought to less developed agrarian societies of Egypt, Europe, India, it had to adapt backward, and was sub-optimal. With globalization and free trade Muslims are again becoming like fish in water as our Prophet was a businessman trader, and he compiled a manual for the trading era, and that is called the Quran. Read it, and you will learn how to succeed in the coming world.
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 07:09pm
LOL. The moon will be blue and pigs will fly and hell will freeze over before that happens.
Cyrus Howell Jan 21, 2013 08:37pm
"Faiza, I understand your feeling and frustration you feel about not being able to normalize relations..." It is a personal problem. Woman alone can become very neurotic if they don't get married, or get help. Always check to see if a single woman lives with a cat.
JUnahid Jan 21, 2013 09:32pm
Dream, eyewash, a fairytale, whatever you call for this indo-pak friendship, as long as terrorists keep moving freely in Pakistan.
raj Jan 21, 2013 08:34pm
i agree with mohammad but just change rather than we giving u siachin and kashmir you take it as real men front to front fight if u like ,also hyderabad come and visit hyderabad and u will know ...nizam flew his place as a coward...also whatever muslims are in india are indians first so stop dreaming about them ........its as much land of them as much as anyone and plz let theindian army disarm but only one one condition that all weapons be fired upon pakistan .......jai shree ram there will be peace no in the region but whole world as pakistan is the cause of terrorism in whole world ...jai sri raam
waqaralam Jan 21, 2013 07:37pm
Lots of Indians and Pakistanis guys comments. Both sides are blamming each other and proving most of the points of Faiza article true. Piety on guys like you. You deserve peace with this mentality, I wonder, if answer is yes. So who am I? Pakistani or Indian? hmmmmm, why should I mention? Becoz I will receive only criticism.
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 08:25pm
anil ji: Namaste It is not about the past, it is about the future. Pakistan and Pakistanis have always been ahead of India in terms of looking to the future. Today, Pakistan is undergoing a necessary civil war to transition from rural/agrarian to urban/industrial era and to align itself for the coming era of Globalization and Free Trade. We will arrive at a new social contract once it is over. In England, France, America, Russia, China, there was much bloodshed. These fundamental matters are never resolved by ballots but by bullets. India is not aware of the problem it will face, let alone the solutions at hand. Pakistanis do not look at "the scars of the past". We do not hold grudges. From your post it looks like Indians are still sulking over what happened 65 years ago or 2 years ago. Such attitude consumes internal energy and prevents progress. Best wishes
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 10:59pm
Rakesh ji: Namaste I never claimed of implied that agrarian era is inferior to trading one. However, it is a fact that agrarian era precedes the trading one. Religions are simply socio-economic systems that respond efficiently to the Primal Question of Existence - Survival, Growth, and Evolution. Each religion is tied to its own economic era. Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, are tied to the agrarian age, while Hellenism and Islam are linked to the Trading era (both Athens and Mecca were trading centres). Best wishes
Imran Jan 21, 2013 08:29pm
Well said Dr Sb. That was quite an elaborate input . You are undoubtedly a member of the BJP. Inshallah we will not be friends anytime soon.
waqaralam Jan 21, 2013 07:42pm
You still want more wars. Let's start this thread for some warm discussion as a Pakistani and Indian to spread more hate, venom, blame game etc etc. We have to change ourselves otherwise your wish will definitely fullfill.
abc Jan 21, 2013 08:47pm
"Indian women protesting against the killings of Shia Muslims in Quetta". These women should mind their own business and focus more on human rights violations in their own country against muslims. They are backed by anti paistan propagandists, and its anybodies guess, who they are.
challa Jan 21, 2013 06:40pm
And also separate Baluchistan and Sindh from Pakistan and then there will be surly peace in Pakistan
Jayanta Jan 22, 2013 09:54am
Do you think that killing of the innocent people and peace talk can move together. Please dont ask for proof from India for the crime committed by the evils from within Pakistan. It is the duty of the Pakistani establishment to find out the proof. If you are really peace loving country, I think most of the Pakistani are, please do something positive in the right direction. If peace is there, everything will be possible, be it sports, music, movie..... anything.
anonymous indian Jan 22, 2013 04:08am
Aha...we now know why you look like the "SOMALIA OF SOUTH ASIA".
Different View Jan 22, 2013 03:33pm
Dear Ms Mirza, You are trivializing the incidence at the LoC. There is ceasefire between the two countries, but we recently heard it was broken and some firing was shared between the two borders. That is normal. A soldier or two were died in this exchange of fire. That is not normal, but still it could be treated as an accident. But when someone crosses the border and beheads and mutilate a soldier, this is absolutely barbaric and unacceptable. And this should be treated with firm hand. Even after the meeting between representatives of the two army, in which Pakistani side completely denied any hand, is something can not be and should not be treated casually. So when the Indian Prime Minister said the business with Pakistan is not as usual, he is absolutely right. All the artists' and sportsmen's loss is extremely trivial. They shouldn't have been arranged to be performing in India in the first place, according to me. As you said Pakistan has some elements which performs these acts of extreme violence. Pakistan should OWN them and act against them. And not deny and expect it will be forgiven.
A Kasmiri Jan 21, 2013 10:40pm
Dear Sir, What is your real name? Hamid Gul? Hafiz Sayyed? Zawahiri? Illyas Kashmiri? M. Zaid? Aurangjeb? .... So far in the last 67 years your Pakistan - a nuclear power, leader of ummah, 180 million true muslims etc. can not even get a brick from Jinnah house in mumbai? forget getting a mile of Kashmir. What you 180 million Papistani can get is hew heads to prove your bravery! This is also because Indian politicians got 18 million heads to spend and these life's are very cheap. Just a warning from army chief Pakistan runs to UNSC! We all see what UNSC and UN capable in Syria and Libiya! May be you forgot mention few more things in your wish list you want from India i.e. Taj Mahal, Qutub Minar and Char Minar! How about grave of Galib and Humayoon?
Imran Jan 21, 2013 08:23pm
Rajesh I'm not so sure that peace lovers are the majority. These columns are a good cross-section of our societies and i think you can get a pretty good idea that the majority do not want peace or friendship.
raj Jan 21, 2013 08:39pm
apologistic article and a sane article has difference probably u are mentally incapable to judge it and thats why u are not writer of dawn as she is ....india refused investigation bcoz pakistan asked for investigation after giveing clean chit to itself so there was already a judgemnt given hypocrisy as always .....and we will love to die and walk on the path of war if it is imposed on us in the cowardly manner lke pakistan does in form of petty terrorists bcoz it does not have guts to take on from front ......and energy resources if anyone forgets is lot more than what he is dreaming of pipeline .....first think how will u pay billions of dollars abck ...once us is going back u will not be able to balckmail it anytime soon and then see what comes out .....
Indigo Jan 21, 2013 09:27pm
Yes, Sure. First of all as you claim to be a Punjabi, you have an inherent superior complex (I fail to understand why? Maybe empty vessels make more noise?). If you thesis holds to be true, I fail to understand why Punjabi Muslims failed to live under the Sikh Khalsa rule. Stop pretending on painting Punjab as land of paradise. It is not, as we came to see during 1947 Partition. I would say you should stop vilifying Muhajirs. Muhajirs created Pakistan for people like you. They migrated leaving everything behind, yet they don't have a separate state in Pakistan. Muhajirs are the most secular and liberal minded. Look at the amount of punjabi taliban members. Look at 26/11 Mumbai Hit Squad. Almost 80% are punjabis. Punjabis are hypocritical at best. Explains why Pakistan is going down..40% of Pakistan is made of punjabis.
Mandeep Jan 21, 2013 08:40pm
But what is your counter argument ? It was BJP whose PM came to Pakistan in 1998 and sighned Lahore declaration to settle all issues between 2 countries. You guys wrecked everything by staging intrusion into Kargil.
Punjabi Power Jan 21, 2013 09:18pm
Cyrus, I always enjoy your comments. You are very balanced and analytical reader. I personally think we should stop that peace and P2P garbage and seal the border until the current generation move on and next generation make their own mind about peace.There is too much distrust between two nations that it is impossible to create peace at this time.
V. C. Bhutani Jan 21, 2013 09:47pm
Ms Faiza Mirza has written with great sensitivity and it does seem that she is pouring out her heart. I only wish there were more people like her
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 10:58pm
With citizens like you no wonder Pakistan is suffering
H S Roy Jan 21, 2013 06:40pm
Pakistan was founded by your forefathers on the premise that they can't co-exist with us. So stick to that. Contrary to what you think, we really aren't that obsessed with Pakistan. We don't even care any longer whether our cricket team wins or loses against yours. Its only when there is a terrorist attack that we are rudely reminded of the nuisance next door. The common man in India wants to move on with his life. He really doesn't have anything to gain from better ties with Pakistan. Most of us would prefer no relation with Pakistan. We neither want to be your friends nor your enemies. Just leave us alone.
Tamilslevan Jan 21, 2013 10:39pm
Muslims who migrated to Pakistan are regretting the move as one can see the treatment meted out to them in today's "Land of Pure" and also to the Hindus and Sikhs who did not migrate. Either they are forced to convert or treated as 2nd class citizens. The proof is in the pudding
Mian Mithu Jan 22, 2013 10:36am
Indo-Pakistan friendship: A dodo bird?
Imran Jan 21, 2013 09:23pm
Predictable Indian response. As you fully know, there are NO outstanding UN resolutions on any of the issues you have pointed to. Resolution for Kashmir plebiscite is one of the earliest resolutions passed by Security Council. India's refusal to honour that has kept one fifth of humanity so backward and perpetually hostile.
Kt Jan 21, 2013 11:14pm
How can we leave past behind if after few months or year Pakistanis are engaged in creating trouble or killing people? Author is completely wrong in her understanding that majority of people are not against each other, at least as Indians I would say that most Indians hates Pakistanis for nonsense involving innocent killing or starting war or supporting some form of terrorism. And most Hindus are demons for most Pakistanis anyway... Although they love watching Tv shows, movies, IPL .....
AHA Jan 21, 2013 05:10pm
Germany and Russia? We will need 2 world wars and 40 years of a very hot 'cold' war to get there. I cannot afford that. Can you???
bnath Jan 21, 2013 06:35pm
They were just sent back. They were not killed or beheaded.
Geekay Jan 21, 2013 06:35pm
Read sources from Pak side if you can not depend wikipedia on 1971. India did not start that war too. Mr Bhutto came to claim back the lost land and captured army. The biggest regret is that India slips into brotherly love after every stab in the back.
Imran Jan 21, 2013 08:27pm
I think India can do a pretty good job of derailing itself, without Pakistan's help. BTW it was India who in 1971 broke up Pakistan and not vice versa.
Imran Jan 21, 2013 09:14pm
You have tried to neatly bracket Pakistanis with the Nazis. Sorry to burst your bubble but unlike Nazis, Pakistanis are the direct victims of terrorism. Over 35000 innocent civilians have been killed as a direct result of terrorism in the last 10 years and you are still whimpering over the Mumbai attacks even after Kasab has been hanged. You should move on now.The Nazi party was a democratically elected government, like your Modi's government. Pakistan's government is not terrorist but is constantly being targeted by terrorists. Only over the last month 2 serving ministers have been assasinated by the Taliban. As for heads rolling after Osama, which heads are you talking about? Zardari wasn't hiding Osama. All 19 terrorists on 9/11 were Saudis , so do you think Saudi heads should roll?
Somu Jan 21, 2013 05:01pm
Is there peace in the 'all muslim' world of middle east. Now do not start blaming the west for the disturbances there.
Punjabi Power Jan 21, 2013 08:59pm
What language is that dude?
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 07:59pm
AHA put it well. Germany and Russia lost over 70 million among themselves in 31 years (1914-45) for a combined population of 200 million. It will be silly for Pakistan and India to kill 400 million of their own to have this kind of peace.
Rahul Jan 22, 2013 09:55am
Is this satire?
Indigo Jan 21, 2013 06:29pm
As an Indian, I agree totally with your solution. Just one more addendum, the whole new area will continue to be called "India". Keep Day Dreaming. We Indians have learnt about the diabolical back stabbing nature of pakistan army. Pakistan is an Army with a State. Very soon, you will reap all the seeds that your military establishment has sown.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:20pm
You should move to india they can do with a traitor like you
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:07pm
They are afraid of the truth. The collective lying in teh indian media and public is astonishing. They completely ignore the fact that india killed a pakistani soldiers first days before the two indian soldiers were killed. But in their case no amount of truth or facts can get in teh way of good propoganda and hate mongering. Their society is not far from the blind nazi followers.
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 11:54am
Andy: Greetings You are right. If anything, a stay among the Arabs makes a Pakistani revolted against them, partly because of their racism. When I left Pakistan in 1968 we used to consider the Persians, the Turks, and the Arabs one notch above us. But upon interaction with them here in the West and in their native countries you realize how much ahead South Asia is of them, and that is a legacy of the Raj that gave us the gift of the English language, and a like with modernity that these others do not have. Modernity is not in European Dress or wealth, but in outlook towards reality. Best wishes
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 04:10am
does not matter: Greetings Pakistan has correct relations with China. Why does China not give cheap loans to India? China can take care of its SinKiang terrorism. The Chinese know that Pakistan has suffered more of this terrorism than China. It is a common problem. There may be difference of strategy, but Pak-Afghan relations are certain not of animosity. Did Pakistan not free the Afghans from the Soviet terror? Now that Soviet Union is no more and China is emerging as a world power, India is trying to sell itself to the US. At least Pak-US relationship were based on common psyche of a universal vision for mankind, India-US relationship is purely exploitative. And even that now that Ms. Clinton has been replaced by Kerry this emerging partnership may be in trouble. Draft Dodger peacenik India lover Bill Clinton is one thing, war hero Kerry totally another. No one can call India-Bangladesh relationship as friendly. At best it is co-existence. Kashmir may be
Imran Jan 21, 2013 09:52pm
How can Baluchistan's liberation bring about peace between India and Pakistan? Pakistan has still not forgotten East Pakistans liberation.
John Jan 21, 2013 06:19pm
I have a very fundamental question - why are Pakistanis so eager to visit India or have relations with India? considering the fact that India is still considered an enemy by larger sections of the population.
chishti Jan 21, 2013 02:03pm
Please get off the horse of your high moral horse and self-reflect on your own treatment of people of Kashmir, Gujrat and general discrimination of various low castes of Indians. Same goes for Pakistani's, please look at general tolerance of even different sects of Muslims in our society before complaining of atrocities of Indians in Kashmir. It would be be better that both nations correct their own intolerance and dicrimationation of their own people before look to the other nation for extra-ordinary civility. Clearly majority of peace loving people of both nations are silent and letting minority of exteremist letting the politicians/army push their agenda. No nation or individual is perfect and never will be. Great nations look beoyond short comings and seek heigher goals. For the sielent majority, even if you add your voice in correcting someone like the dkg, you would bring about change in the mindset of the few. BTW: great article by Faiza.. Congrats
Geekay Jan 21, 2013 06:15pm
"Sweet dreams are made of these" song by Annie Lennox comes to mind. Wao! - A wish list of territories. Even Mr Jinnah never made such comprehensive demand of British. See, if you do not fritter away what Mr Jinnah bequeathed you.
punyasloka Jan 21, 2013 06:13pm
what !!! Pakistan economy has minimum reliance on indian economy???
Cyrus Howell Jan 21, 2013 08:33pm
"Faiza Mirza
Mandeep Jan 21, 2013 06:06pm
What you had been smoking off late, Imran ? Anyway thankyou for not giving a simple solution under which of all Indians, infact, the whole world, convert to Islam (But I wonder which one ???) so that there will be aman...
Cynical Jan 21, 2013 06:07pm
No need to over analyse the relation between the twins. It all is rooted in partition; when the great philosopher, the great social engineer, the great political scientist, the great lawyer and the greatest warrior of Islam proclaimed that Muslims and Hindus in undivided India are two different nations and they can't live together in one country. Since then it left a permanent scar of injury on Indian (mostly Hindus) psyche and a sense of triumph among the Pakistanis (entirely Muslims).
Srini (Dallas,TX) Jan 22, 2013 06:01am
Right on. People like me who used to give benefit of doubt to Pakistan in arguments with friends, have no answers to these questions.
Gujesh Jan 22, 2013 04:32am
"Islam is a trading faith, and Hinduism is agrarian." Please check the list of world billionnaires. How many of them are hindus and muslims. Most of muslims owe their wealth to crude oil.
AK Jan 21, 2013 06:04pm
If Pakistan is behind LOC tensions, why is India not agreeing to investigation by UN observers?
does not matter Jan 21, 2013 11:02pm
lets get into the bottom of it. Pakistan and China. Well you can't really afford to mess with the Chinese, can you? They are the donors for you guys. They give you from cheap loans to technology. So it is not about you want the peace with them but it is not your option to mess with them despite Chinese blaming that so called terrorism in Xin Xiang is coming from Pakistan territory. Now if situation between Pakistan and Afghanistan is called "peace" then i don't know what a small war like situation is called. Pakistan harboring the taliban that go and attack Afghan security forces and NATO forces. Afghan government has accused Pakistan time and again for harboring terrorists so i don't know how you considered it to be a peace like situation. Lets discuss India and rest of the neighbors. India china war in 1965 and no war since then despite having border issues. Indo-Bangla war never happened. Indo-Nepal war never happened. Indo-Sri lanka war never happened. India bhutan was never happened and Kashmir is Indian territory so no question about war with our own state and by God's grace we'll take the rest of it as well.
Mandeep Jan 21, 2013 06:03pm
If movies had this much impact than all the evils which are depicted in movies and represented by villian who ultimatley looses, would have vanished. Movies dont have any significant impact. Bollywood didn't do Kargil or 26/11 or terrorism in Punjab and Kashmir. We have repeatedly told that it is terrorism emanating from Pakistan which is spoiling the relationship. Forget about movies and come to reality.
punyasloka Jan 21, 2013 06:01pm
more solutions: 1- make Baluchistan independent 2- make north Waziristan and northern area and hand over power to the tribal peoples. 3- burn down karachi to stop target killing 4- declare Sindh hindu state. 5- kill all the people you hate using blasphemy law.
Raj Jan 21, 2013 05:58pm
Dream onnn baby...
Zak Jan 21, 2013 05:53pm
The Indian army creates problems the moment they see the politicians are addressing the core issue of Kashmir. The Indian army now full of right wing Hindu extremists from Rss feel their perks and scam frauds will be stopped.
Cyrus Howell Jan 21, 2013 08:29pm
"Many of my friends dislike Pakistan." Many of the Bangladeshis I know in London dislike Pakistanis. Only the university educated Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians get along. Particularly the young women more than the men. Wherever Pakistanis travel their bring all their baggage with them.
Dinesh Jan 21, 2013 05:55pm
Pakistani Punjabis believe in driving away all minorities. Once they drove away all the minorities(20% to 2% or even less), their focus was on Bangladeshis.....they got rid of the BDs and now they are for exterminating Baluchis & Sindhis. Civil war I predict if the Balochis & Sindhis can stand up..or the whole of Pakistan is going to be subservient to the Punjabis.
Feroz Jan 22, 2013 01:45pm
Abbas, does Pakistan live in peace with Afghanistan ? Please ask any visitor to Afghanistan which country is the most hated by them --- it is a close race between the US and Pakistan. If you read the papers you will not need to ask why.
bilal Jan 21, 2013 05:44pm
yeah one atom bomb on both sides will do it.. like usa and japan are now best friends , they were rivals before ...remember pearl harbor & hiroshima nagasaki... Russians and Germans were friends only after millions of germans/russians lost their lives during nazi regime and World war 2
ravi kant Jan 21, 2013 05:39pm
dear friends .namstain n slaam. friends i think its not at all about religion first.see religion is made so can we be away from bad things not because we do bad for religion purpose.u know friends we share common behavior towards each other.u know why? because many of our things- either recopies in our kitchen, (sarson da saag n makki di roti,murg musslam n all),our sanskars to our children,our language.its not a problem of two countrys. its problem of a family who want to live together but everybody wants it on there own terms.yes or no india and pakistan still a family.which divided by a wall thats all. chulhain sanjhain nhi rahain bas.n like other families we also have some bad children who fight with each other.but it doesn't mean that we the elders of family fight just because of our children. friends--- waqt mohbbat karnain kain liyain bhut kam hain na janain log kha sain dushmani kain liyain nikal latain hain. namstain,khuda hafiz.........
goodperson Jan 22, 2013 04:40pm
Arabs don't consider pakistanis as islamic.. I met one lady whose father has been working in a bank in saudi for 35 years, yet he cannot be considered for citizenship in saudi arabia..his daughter was born in saudi still she is not saudi citizen. Saudi consider pakistani as secondhand.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:00pm
India should come clean on siachen, bangladesh and cross border terrorism in balochistan. Else please stop obsessing about pakistan. Tell your politicians to find a different punching bag to divert the attention of their poor people from other problems such as Gang rapes etc.
bilal Jan 21, 2013 05:34pm
Pakistan politicians, ISI and other agencies always india as a "propoganda".. 1. That the mumbai attacks was done by someone within india , it has been proved that this was done by LET , zakir ur lakhvi has been arrested for carrying out ..what was the outcome.. 200+ innocent people died .. did that resolved kashmir issue? 2. That the soldier killed brutally with head cut and headless body sent.. pak says again propoganda, and its a design by indians..did that resolved kashmir issue? 3. Kargil war was started by pak with no apparent motive killing hundreds of soldiers on both sides.. Musharraf calls it a great success.. what a dumb sucker ..did that resolved kashmir issue? India can never give up kashmir as the government that does that will be outsted in moments.. as people will not vote that government ever. same on pak side, if politicians give up kashmir issue they will not remain in power.. bottom line.. these politicians are fighting for useless reason and the fight will never end.
Javed Jan 21, 2013 05:24pm
No matter what you and your media spreads...but remember you are fooling your won people! The reality is 1 soldier was beheaded like its been going on since last few years. Pak army denies it while terrorist/millitents allowed to execute this barbarian act? If not the pak army than who would do such a barbaric job? If pak is serious on their "so called peace talk" than why no representation from pak army in any talks? first, pak govt. has to work with their own army than expect others to work with their agenda. Too much expectation from India is not going to work...look at Canada and USA and learn from them. after all we are a same race and ethnic people. please stop radicalizing the innocent mass of people.
AHA Jan 21, 2013 05:25pm
I was also brainwashed with all those slogans as a kid. But after the defeat of Pakistan in 1971, I realized that there was something seriously wrong with our
veer Jan 21, 2013 05:11pm
all you salwaar walker are funny,,country is side by side with somalia or worse
Somu Jan 21, 2013 05:18pm
I see this jingoism & charged atmosphere at the muslim sermons. I pity the inorant people.
Imran Jan 22, 2013 08:28am
"Just leave us alone". Sir with due respect it appears that its you guys who are obsessed with us. Looking at the numbers and timings of all these comments it would appear that many Indians are constantly trawling Pakistani news sites and their day doesn't seem complete untill they have come here and pushed their self-deluding righteousness down our throats. It is us who should be saying : Just leave us alone.
vjjjjjjjjjjj Jan 21, 2013 05:33pm
There is big problem with media all around the world. They only show others miseries which is not the reflection of the society in general. By and large educated and middle class families dont make headlines, doesn't mean they dont exist. Some cast based incident in the village in Bihar UP or Jarkhand doesn't represent mindset of India. One incident in Gujarat in the 65 year long history of India doesnt represent mindset of India in general. If we make news on a daily basis then there is indeed a problem, the problem is sever if we make international news on daily basis. I repeatedly see discussion on cast and religion when their is discussion about India. All i want to say is, In India if you discuss about your religion or cast in public or even to your friend, then you will be considered indecent and hardliner. Your company will not be liked any more. Your education and knowledge is pathetic. If you have good education you will not speak 200% with 2% knowledge on something. To learn something right you have to first unlearn it, which is more difficult than learning. I wish Pakistan corrects is education system. I sympathies the educated citizens of Pak. They dont even realize what is fact and what is distortion.
No to India Jan 22, 2013 08:31am
LOL.. that is why a punjabi can be distinguished among other Indians by their fair complexion and strong build. How many lower cast are fair and strong build? What a ignorant hindu
Ali Jan 22, 2013 04:25pm
Now I know why you Indians feel so bad every time we defeat you in sports....because India the emerging super power loses to a failed state......and on a regular basis! Pity the emerging super power of over a billion cant produce decent enough athletes to defeat us lowly failed state folks! Same goes for musicians, comedians etc! failed state...hahaha
Robert Dsouza Jan 22, 2013 03:12pm
India is not going to gain anything from cross border trade, visit of artists, sportsmen...instead we get fake currency,Drugs, guns supplied across the border...We dont want friendship neither we need hatred against Pakista, We indians are different culture..Our Sunni Muslims do not kill, Shias, Ismaeilis, Ahmediyas or Christians...Stop calling same culture....Let us live alone..Please...
kidco Jan 22, 2013 04:13pm
kash ap to hamary hoty!
Md Imran Jan 21, 2013 02:01pm
The solution is very simple in my opinion : Please solve the core issue of Kashmir and Siachen by giving them to their rightful owners ,i.e. to Pakistan. Let Hyderabad seperate and be a muslim majority state in itself or they can merge with Pakistan as was the wish of the then Nizam. Also, options of autonomy to muslim majority areas in UP, Bihar and West Bengal. Above all, please disarm and dismantle Indian army. Inshaallah, then there'll be aman..
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 04:09pm
AS: AOA So what? Weak argument my friend. All the great sportsmen in US are Black, and all make millions. That is the only job an uneducated person can get - play, or act. But for every 1 making million, a million are on the dole. The plethora of Muslims in Bollywood shows Muslim poverty, not strength. The Bollywood of 1940 had even a higher proportion of Muslims. Almost all the actresses - Nargis, Madhubala, Meena Kumari, Shyama, Waheeda Rahman, Nimmi, etc. etc were Muslim (not to speak of Noor Jehan who came to Pakistan and became a producer/director). That is the only profession they could practice. Lollywood is in dumps because women in Pakistan are now doctors, engineers, pilots, politician, correspondents, diplomats, lawmakers, columnists. A personal example. My mother and her brother were only two siblings in family. She left all her lands to him (considerable, almost half a village) and came penniless to Pakistan. I remember my childhood with only 1 dress that we washed and wore. Today, we have 14 university degrees among us 6 siblings, and they in India only 3 among all 12 of them. 3 of us are in north America, and 3 in Pakistan. And Pakistan has given us so much that each of us is wealthier than 12 of them put together. Thank you Allah. Thank you mother and father. Thank you Pakistan. Best wishes
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 10:48pm
This is the kind of propoganda that keeps the hatred alive in india
Arif Jan 21, 2013 04:37pm
Dream on.
MKB Jan 22, 2013 04:03pm
I again vouch for concrete and law abiding formulas to cemented the long lasting ties between the two. But first and formost step is to stopping of terrorism by Pakistan in any form.
Pankaj Jan 21, 2013 03:59pm
Please look at reaction of your Pakistani media at the time of Mumbai attack. The media and your peanut think tanks (Lal Topi) were all busy putting theory of attack on Indians themselve.
Different View Jan 22, 2013 03:12pm
It could be true. There could be more Indians reading Dawn news online than Pakistanis. But I guess, they are normal Indians readers without any agenda or support from any agency.
IMIyer Jan 21, 2013 04:00pm
Would like to see a pointer to a prominent Pakistani newspaper carrying this protest in their front page. I read Dawn daily and do not recollect seeing this. Please send the link if it exists
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 01:08pm
That must make Indian men happy in India with women under their tight control. Did you ever wonder that anti-Pakistanis on this Board all are Indian men, none Indian women.
Don Quixote Jan 21, 2013 04:10pm
Faiza, while your sentiments are right on, there is one big difference. The percentage of peace-wanting Indian is much higher than those in Pakistan. In fact the middle-class intelligencia like you, is itself a huge minority in Pakistan. If you guys yourselves are not able to get peace for yourself, against the radical army and terrorists, we cannot depend on you to extend peace with India. It is not your complete fault (some part surely is, for allowing such things to happen over the year, starting with the Partition based on hatred and religious chauvanism) and certainly not within your power to stop them. However the mistake that us Indians keep on making is to talk to you guys, listen to your good senses and start working on peace, only to be stabbed in the back by the same guys who stab you all the time. Unless your country attains internal peace, there can be little hope of peace with India.
IMIyer Jan 21, 2013 03:56pm
It takes one hand to give you the claps (disease)
HNY2013 Jan 21, 2013 03:56pm
Ever wondered who is really benefiting out of this "hatred" ......... go ask any common man (either side of the border) what are his opinion about the neighboring country. THEN, follow is up by asking him why he thinks so, and i am ready to bet that the two most common answers would be 1. Media 2. Politicians telling us to hate each other. What i am trying to say is both countries are responsible, may be there is a stronger force which does not want them to be friendly. Till the time that wall is not broken down, we all will remain INSECURE.
Neo Jan 22, 2013 02:57pm
i think we are more than blessed to be part of his country.. i would rather receive pity on me than wait to blow up in pieces in my neighborhood.. ;) hope i didn't offended you..
Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 12:22pm
Over the killings of the Indians and Pak soldiers, Pakistan has offered to have the matter investigated by UN. But India says no. India is acting like a Bollywood heroine who feels betrayed. Who is acting strong and who weak? Pak is a temporary member of UN security council(after India voted in their favour) right now so Pak will use its position for her gain. In urbanization, Pakistan is ahead of India. Pakistan is no longer a purely agrarian society but an industrial/trading one. In today
AHA Jan 22, 2013 12:07pm
I love Pakistan, and I pray, hope, dream and what not for a peaceful Pakistan that is able to take care of its people. I hope and pray for a Pakistan where its people understand what is right for them and, therefore, for Pakistan. I hope and pray for a Pakistan whose objective is to ensure the betterment of its masses, and not the ego of a select few. If that makes me a traitor, then so be it. I am proud of what I feel and what I say to express that feeling.
Patriotic Jan 21, 2013 03:37pm Please research properly before writing articles. Refusing to believe something doesn't prove it otherwise. Even if majority want ties to improve, can they expect that to happen when 44% of Pakistanis believe Osama Bin Laden to be a martyr ( If this is what they think about Osama Bin Laden, what would they think about Hafiz Saeed? What about the continuous disregard of Hindu Gods and Goddesses in Pakistani media and stage dramas? Even if we say India is secular, majority of Pakistan still believes in two nation theory and in that sense, it is a direct attack on India. Whatever be the reason, if people's sentiments in both countries don't improve, all these efforts will bring no fruit. I'm all for peace but I don't see it happening any time soon, at least till people like Hamid Gul are promoted in the top institutions of either country.
RSS Jan 22, 2013 02:50pm
just dread the day when our patience gets saturated.. we hold ourselves in 2002, in 2008 and in 2011.. you guys dare do anything again of that sort and i promise, you will woke up in ash mountains and carbonated remains all over and around you...
Mohammad sabir Jan 22, 2013 04:25pm
I am an indian and definately feel lucky and feel pity for people dying on other side. I feel Pakistan should move towards peace. There are people who will always try to divide us on various sentiments. Please don't give them space and time. I do meet bad people in india as well but they are very less 1% may be. But if you have faith and open mind you would like peace and love more than hate and suffering.
sktomer Jan 21, 2013 03:34pm
Dear G.A., Could you point to some source regarding the protest against Mumbai attack? I have seen many protest against India.
sktomer Jan 21, 2013 03:30pm
It matters who started first. Who attacked J&K and blamed on tribal? Who started war in 1965? Who did not make the person PM even after getting majority in the parliament, just because he was Bengali? Who attacked India in 1999? Whose citizen attacked Indian parliament. Whose citizen attacked Mumbai in 2008? Whose citizen or army showed barbaric behavior? I do not know how true is the news that Elyas Kashmir president the head of Indian soldier to Musharraf, and he gave him 1,00,000 as awards. One reported asked Musharraf about this recently, he just said no discussion about Kashmir, he did not categorically deny the incident. Pakistan never accepted that their government is involved in terrorism. But they told that they have stopped supporting after 2004. Does this not mean that they have accepted the fact that they were supporting terrorism before. We are also no saint. We attacked Siachen. We intervened in East Bengal after millions (I do not know how many million, as the figures vary a lot) of refugee came to India. It might the agenda of Pak army to get hold of the power in Pak. There has been some sign that top official (Army and government) of Pak are not supporting terrorism now. But some unofficial people, and retried ISI officer are still supporting terrorism. There is a hope that if Pak civilian government get the power, they might stop the use of Pak soil to grow terrorist against India. You forgot to mention that we also sent back Pak business man back. If there is barbaric behavior on the border either by Pak army or Pak millitant, the relationship can not be normal. If bravery means barbaric behavior, Indian would rather like not be brave.
Mohan Menon Jan 21, 2013 03:28pm
What is behind your rants?I it the dis illusion with the state of affairs in your country?You expect Indians to garland and greet Pak players when Indian soldiers are brutally beheaded and more pathetically outright denial by Pak.That too hours after hosting Pak cricket team.You call those protesting against Pak players as terrorists then what you call hafeez saeed,salahuddin??Finally Pak is the only which accuses India of hidden agenda in every thing.May be it is part of your policy which you expect in others but certainly not ours.Hope dawn is forthright to publish my comment as it one of the few sane voice remaining in Pakistan.
Ganesh Jan 22, 2013 01:26pm
The main reason for Pak hate towards India is their inability to see hindu establishment ruling India which they ,foolishly,consider as their property!!they want share in economic boom of India which they ,through rogue elements like Moghuls ,once had control over!!But Pak should know that every race/civilization has its time and now its the time of Hindu race to dominate world!!Now if pakistan continue to not accept that even after India becoming 3rd most powerful country in the world - courtesy CIA Report 2012 - then I can see they are only racing towards their destruction!!This suicide mentality of "Hum to Doobenge sanam ....." will not work with India as no country ,least of pak ,can stop India from becoming Super Power!!
No to India Jan 22, 2013 08:32am
love it
does not matter Jan 22, 2013 12:28am
I think right now India has enough money to build pipeline with Iran under the sea. Of course it will be expensive but if no other choice, India will go for it. That takes care of dependency over Pakistan. Iran has agreed to build its own share of rail track to go to central Asia. India might even help Iran to build that. Once that is in place, India will by pass Pakistan completely to go to Europe and Central Asia. Even if US try to push India, India may negotiate a better oil deal from Saudis playing the Iran card with US. In any case, India will take care of its energy needs for few coming years. The nuclear deals with western countries is on the way and they way things are going on India will have few more nuclear reactors in coming years, despite having some local issues against them. India does not necessarily need Pakistan
Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 08:13am
Correctly said I am one of them
Seedoo Jan 21, 2013 03:16pm
Your high a mightly attitude is emblematic of the very problem from the Indian side. While educated Pakistanis are willing to be objective and work for peace, realizing that their own leaders are many times at fault, people like you in India consider your country to be without fault and are not wiling to entertain for even a second that what you are hear from your politicians and media may not entirely be correct either. This narrative that India is completely innocent and that it has been on the receiving end for the past 65 years of all the evil machinations of Pakistan and Pakistanis is nothing short of naive, even absurd. Please wake up and smell the coffee for a change! Let's not allow these elements to take away from us what could be a great future for the peoples of both the countries. Love and Peace from across the border.
Rahul Jan 21, 2013 03:20pm
I think one is enough for a slap :) !!
BRR Jan 21, 2013 03:14pm
There are too many myths against hindus actively promoted by Pakistanis (especially military) and religious scholars. 1 muslim is better than 10 hindus, muslims are honest while indians are cheats, islam is a better religion while hindus believe is wrong things, 1 muslim soldier is better then 10 indian soldiers, etc. The only thing propagated in India is that all pakistanis are the same - they hate India. Not, which one is easier to dispel?
Patriotic Jan 21, 2013 09:27pm
Hello Abbas. Considering him a martyr? Why is it that the whole world still considers him a mass murderer terrorist and only in Pakistan, he is supported by such a large majority? Please also understand that he had been declared a terrorist by the whole world including the U.N. of which Pakistan is a member state. This is not a thug we are talking about here. One needs to acknowledge that there are people in the media and among the politicians in Pakistan who are in a continuous state of denial and the pakistani people at large have been susceptible to conspiracy theories and their politicians, media and hate mongers have taken advantage of this and misguided them. Right from Kargil where Pakistan refused to acknowledge their own soldiers to Mumbai attacks, there has been a sense of denial from Pakistani side and it is the same with acknowledging Osama Bin Laden as a terrorist. I'm not supporting the U.S. here and I also think that he should have been given a fair trial. However, I do not, unlike 44% Pakistanis consider him a martyr and am not sad at his killing. A nation refers to a socio-cultural entity, a union of people sharing who can identify culturally and linguistically. This concept does not necessarily consider formal political unions. This was the definition on the basis of which some Pakistani politicians declared a two nation concept in the south Asian region. This notion of a nation itself considers Muslims to be some sort of a different ethnic or cultural group from the rest of the Indians (predominantly the Hindus) which is certainly not true. Some people in Pakistan also tried or still try to propagate the myth that they were Arabs and not Indians in order to somehow solve the existential dilemma of Pakistan. This notion failed at the time of independence when an equal number of Muslims stayed in India as did in Pakistan and further, in 1971. India is home to 1.21 billion proud people belonging to several religions, castes, creeds, colours and languages. Yes, there are problems. We do fight with each other over petty issues and some serious ones as well. But I am willing to bet my life on the fact that over 95% of Indians are proud to be part of this great nation and also consider the other 5% as Indians. As far as peace and freedom is concerned, India wants both peace and freedom for its people. That is why, our constitution and institutions guarantee equal rights to all sections of people and in some cases, also support affirmative action to the extent that there is sometimes backlash from the elites on these matters. This is the strength of India. And Pakistanis want freedom? What kind of freedom do Pakistanis want when a person belonging to the minority in Pakistan can't contest for the top most seat of the country? If by your sentence, you mean some kind of a freedom from India, then please understand that India has no intention of interfering in the sovereignty of Pakistan. Regards Patriotic Indian
Waqas Jan 21, 2013 03:05pm
Junaid, the very existence of Army on both sides and perhaps more so in Pakistan is based upon creating war hysteria against India. Have you ever pondered how much money is diverted to Pak Army and why it continues to meddle in politics of the country?
does not matter Jan 21, 2013 11:57pm
Wait a moment here and think about it. Pakistan being a victim of terrorism? Whose terrorism? US? Afghanistan? Indian? No sir, Pakistan is a victim of its own terrorism. The monster child that you so fondly nurtured is a full grown up adult and now asking its own fair share of power and ready to take it all by Force. Remember the days when these terrorists were martyrs and soldiers of Islam when they were killing hindu Pandits and Indian soldiers in Kashmir? What goes around, comes around.
Dev Jan 22, 2013 08:03am
Absolute nonsense, no artist or sportsperson has been treated poorly, whether Pakistani or any other country.
Raj Jan 21, 2013 03:05pm
I am a common Indian citizen like any other in pakistan, trying to make a better life for my kids than what thankfully my parents provided me and I don't have any thing for or against a common pakistani. In other words "I don't care if you guys live or die", a feeling most certainly and widely reciprocated from your side. I feel like kicking all the 'Aman ki Aasha" peaceniks when they refer want us the mango citizen from india to jump up in joy when ever they mention the good intentions of citizents on both sides of the border. Come onnn, who are you kidding? this is the same common pakistani citizen who couldn't care any less when the Indian parliament was attacked by their agencies, couldn't care any less when their common brotheren trained by agenies landed in Mumbai and created the mayhem. Let me put it blunt - Peace has nothing to do with the common man on both sides and what they want, I don't think its even anywhere near the top priorities of the common man in both countries. India and Pakistan will never have peace till the time Pak army/ISI calls the shots across the border. Come onnn, It will be suicidal for that institution. Without India as the enemy across the border, how can they justify their share in national budget and the corresponding privileges (corner plots for the brigadier and generals). So its only if they keep working on and make their "Strategic Depth" (read terrorist) work that they will be able to keep peace away and keep those corner plots and bungalows running. In short its the "Business of hostility" that brings continued returns for the pak army, which is threatened by the peace process.Given the ground reality, the civillian govt in pakistan is unable to stop this "business of hostility". So how do we workaround this Evil Business Empire which will not let peace to happen??? There is a way. Every private business needs to make a profit or in the case of public enterprises like pak army, at least it should not make losses which are unacceptable, though it may survive with acceptable loses. So the equation is very simple - Profit/loss = Revenue-Cost. The only way we can shutdown this business is to make the "Cost" and the corresponding "loss" very very very high and UNACCEPTABLE for the "Pak Army"(need not be for the pak civilians) in terms of its equipment and installations. And to do that there will be a "Cost" to be paid by Indian Army and people of India. Cost/Sacrifices in terms of loss of life, our economic growth for a short period etc. We are incurring that cost already, but spreading over 6 decades and countless life across our western border and at one point of time at our eastern border also. Lets make this INVESTMENT in BLOOD and materials (I will not dare put this as "cost") in one installment and make PEACE happen. This is the one and only way and the day is not far that once "Maun"Mohan Singh and Italian National Congress will be swept aside soon and the new Indian Govt and Army will reach this conclusion. Once that happens, PEACE will follow...
Neo Jan 22, 2013 02:55pm
No point bringing that up Mandeep.. Imran doesn't remember that.. ;)
AHA Jan 21, 2013 11:37pm
In all fairness to the Germans, many of the Russians who died were murdered by the purges of Stalin.
Kt Jan 21, 2013 11:47pm
What abt china's relations with India, Japan, south Korea, Taiwan, Myanmar.. Pak relation with India, Afghanistan, Iran and best friend US. Most countries in the world see Pak as Terrorist country. Pakis don't get visa easily from most countries in the have to check your reputation first....
does not matter Jan 22, 2013 12:14am
Let me give you an alternate one. How about Balochistan being a free nation and so is Sindh since they have had enough of "Punjabis" dictating the terms and sucking the resources from all over. The Pakhtoons from KP joining their brothers across from that false border "durand line" and make Pakhtoonistan as they always wanted. Then it will only be west Punjab which would remain "Pakistan" and then you won't really need an army because India would just need few dams to take care of it. Like that??
Komal S Jan 22, 2013 02:01pm
You are correct, The educated lot tends to be more anti-pakistan/india on either side of the border. The common man has other basic issues too worry about. Only difference though in Pakistan the extremists are reaching out to poor and middle class and the indoctrination of militant form of Islam is more pronounced as compared to in India. Also note open media will always trigger passion on sensitive issues and both the Government has to deal with this carefully.
AHA Jan 21, 2013 04:56pm
So true, unfortunately. The reality is that that our ideology is founded on the principle of hatred.
AHA Jan 21, 2013 04:58pm
Unfortunately for Pakistan, the violent section of its people is the most dominant.
does not matter Jan 21, 2013 11:22pm
I wonder if Pakistan would ever be serious for peace with India. One needs to understand the bottom of all this issue. We all know it all stems out from Kashmir issue. As long as India has the 2/3 of Kashmir and controlling water re sources, Pakistani authorities can never be at peace. Now like India, Pakistan is an agriculture economy. Most of the fertile lands are in Punjab part of Pakistan. Its the center of the Pakistani economy. If in a war like situation, India goes to extreme ( which it did not even in 4 wars) and stop the water supply to Pakistan, that would be it for Pakistan. Pakistan army is controlled by generals from Punjab and they know what value of Kashmir is for them. They don't bother about Kashmiri people. If Pakistan government was serious about KAshmiri people, Gilgit Baltistan would have been in much better position than it is today even if it is compared with Indian Kashmir. Looking at today's situation, the partition was a boon in disguise for India . Even if we look at the youth of both countries today, the Indian youth's hate towards Pakistan is a reactionary one , fueled by the acts like Mumbai and Kargil. For Pakistani youth, its a different story. India is portrayed as a villain to Justify the creation of Pakistan in the official text books in Pakistan. The hate is still being harbored via school books so how should we expect that this hatred can be overcome any sooner?
A Kasmiri Jan 22, 2013 04:14am
Indigo! You have a point. May allah grant your wishes. I'm Shia... behead me!
Ali Shahzad Jan 22, 2013 02:13pm
One thing i cannot understand that Pakistan alway give the very decent excused for the every henious offence they all committed.. Either it was in Mumbai 26/11 or in the lastest beheading the India solider and killed another one...Just tell me all Islamic paksitan govt that why you are doing that is in the guide line of Islam ideology...Killing Innocent people on the name of Jehad or holy war is the part of Islam...i feel ashmed that pakistan is an muslim country where human being is killing like an cats and dogs....why do you people have an Jealous with India....why..??? always attacked on India either in 1948 or 1965, 1971 or in 1999 kargil war...what output came..noting only killing Innocent peoples......
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 09:04pm
Pankaj ji: Namaste One must live in peace with its neighbours. Today, Pakistan lives in peace with Iran, Afghanistan, China. India is the only 1 holdout. Ok. Ok. Pakistan is the problem. But how about India living in peace and friendship with China, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, not to speak with Kashmir? Once you have exemplary relations with them all then we shall begin looking in the mirror that maybe we are at fault. Best wishes
does not matter Jan 22, 2013 03:23pm
I bet you if there is a survey done today in all across Pakistan and asked people what do they think about Taseer's killing , you will be surprised to see how many would think of it as a good riddance. You are under estimating you country.
Kt Jan 21, 2013 11:42pm
What about china's relation with India, Japan, south Korea, Taiwan, Myanmar??? What abt Pak relation with India, Afghanistan , Iran and your best friend US???
Romi Jan 21, 2013 07:07pm
And let's get those Bangladeshis and properly make them a part of Pakistan. And while we are it, lets invite the Mughals to run the country again. Then all will be well again.
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 03:53pm
Kt: Greetings Oh yeah. And 16 million (or 6 million, or 60 million. or whatever) Jews were killed in Europe by Christians in 1940s. Has India outsourced its PR system to Mossad, the 4,000 year old evidence and news manufacturing factory? Please quote source. Best wishes
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:14pm
Who killed karkare, did you ask?. Why the most photographed terrorist the only one captured alive, did you ask? Did india kill a Pakistani soldier dasy before the two indian soldiers were killed, did you ask? What role indi played in training Mukti Bahinin terrorists, did you ask? etc. if not then you can't ask any questions of Pakistan.
Dr. D. Prithipaul Jan 21, 2013 06:33pm
Faiza Mirza's article is a model of naivete. The enmity between the 2 countries constitutes the sole reason for Pakistan to be. She discovers now that Indians and Pakistanis belong to the same race, etc. while forgetting the argument of the two nation theory morally, politically, militarily, historically override this shallow sentimental evocation. Salman Abbasi is right in justifying the enmity towards India, He echoes the successful reversal of history by means of which the Muslims claim victimhood at the hands of Hindus. In fact the demand for a separate Pakistan was formulated by educated, anglicized Middle Class Muslims. Faiza Mirza needs to recall that Muslim actors, actresses, music composers, singers, directors, script writers, left the Bombay film industry for West Pakistan and their co-believers in the Calcutta film industry left for Eat Pakistan, while their Hindu counterparts left the Lahore film centre for India. All those artists and film people had worked, lived together for all their lives for 2 or more generations. Yet they chose to separate. There is no justification to lament today when India asks hockey, cricket players, or singers to go back when the relationship between India and Pakistan is defined by the likes of Rehman Malik who are elected by the Faiza Mirzas. It is also naive for any one in Pakistan to propose forgetting the past and moving to a better future of amity and peace. Pakistan as such will always stand for separation achieved by the shedding of an ocean of blood. Muslims always try to take cover by denying the past. That is why they never display the slightest effort to recall the hurt they have caused in the past. The Crusaders were all demons. But it was O.K. to have earlier wiped out all the Christian kingdoms and cultures of the Middle East. The Lahore Museum can state an exhibition of Buddhist artefacts at the Asia House in New York, but the catalogue does not refer to the destruction of Takshila and of all Gandhara Art. The Muslims are deaf to the voices of the stones. But the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Jainas do still listen to the wails of the ruins left in the wake of so many iconoclasms. The past is ever the present for 800 million Harbi Kaffirs. The Faiza Mirzas and Rehman Maliks and Rabbani Khars cannot understand this, just because they are Muslims, even if they have the same blood as the Harbis. The enmity exists, and shall always exist, precisely because the blood is the same on both sides of the border. Aurangzeb and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Jinnah had Hindu blood in their veins. That is the very reason for which Bhutto swore to prosecute a thousand year war on India. That is why Jinnah told Gandhi that with Partition Pakistan would have the right to wage war on India - and he did. That is why Aurangzeb vindicated his piety by wrecking the temples of the Buddhists, and of the Hindus. History, and more than history, the ruins, speak of the cruelty and destructiveness of blood against blood. I shall believe in Muslim sincerity of friendship for the Hindu on the day when I shall read of the effective abrogation of the Quran's enjoining war against the dar-ul-Harb. The few elderly Muslims who want visas to visit one another, the few cricketeers who were sent back home, are just a few swallows who do not make a summer of peaceful mutual acceptance.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:41pm
keep making excuses
does not matter Jan 21, 2013 11:42pm
1. From 1947 till date , Pakistan army is trying to get Kashmir separated from India. Of course all the attacks were blunted by India and then in 1971 when Bengali themselves wanted to get rid of "west Pakistan" atrocities and unfair treatment , India "helped" them. If Bengali did not want to be separated then no matter how much India would have tried, it would have failed to separate the Bangladesh from Pakistan 2. Pakistan government has not produced a single evidence to prove Indian involvement in any terror activities in Pakistan, including the much hyped "foreign hand" in Balochistan. 3. There has not been a single proof that India has stopped the fair share of water of Pakistan. As part of treaty , India is free to build as much dam as it thinks fits its needs. 4. India was right about Pakistan nuclear program of it being not in safe hands which proved right when the so called Pakistani "nuclear scientist" confessed that nuclear technology was transferred to Libya and North Korea. All this peace talk from Pakistan is coming when it has all this pressure mounted on it from their own "strategic weapons" and Pakistan army does not want two fronts opened both east and west so they are pushing the politicians to talk peace with India to get them a bit of relief by ensuring nothing happened on eastern borders if they go all out on West. As long as army is calling the shots in Pakistan, there can not be a permanent peace with Pakistan.Period.
anonymous indian Jan 21, 2013 11:31pm
the fact is there is a complete "cultural disconnect" rather than "distrust" and therefore it is almost near impossible to see each others point of view on any issue.
Junaid Hashmat Jan 21, 2013 12:57pm
It takes two hand to clap...!
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:16pm
you really seem to belive your media wonder who is fooling who.
Akil Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 11:38pm
We should see from the desires of the indians that their hatred is very deep rooted and nothing to do with kargil or LOC issues. It is a Hindu hatred against Islam and thousand years of Muslim rule (which made india into a power from a backward group of rajs) . they are against the concept of Pakistan as they see it a continuation of Muslim rule. they will not rest until the name Pakistan is wiped off the map.The rest is just excuses for their own hatred.
bikkar s brar Jan 21, 2013 12:30pm
Dear faiza, Thanks a lot for writing such a good article. If PPakistan army desires the peace can be achieved in a day. Let there be some real patriot general who could do that.
Sheetal Jan 21, 2013 02:36pm
Peace would help both countries and create favourable conditions for economic development. But the people who control Pakistan are neither intrested in peace nor development. They are intrested in playing big geo-political games, grand strategic alliances involving superpowers, creating proxies to control Afganistan and even India, be a leader of Mulsim world, carrying nuclear weapons on their sleeve. I have no doubt in my mind that there exist a peace constituency within Pakistan but it is helpless. In my lifetime, I have seen Mr Vajpayee going to Lahore by Bus and signing a landmark, Lahore declaration agreement with Mr Nawaz Shrief. Can any Pakistani explain to me where was the need to intrude into Kargil ? Who jeaopardised this significant peace intiative ? When composite dialogue was going on in full swing, where was the need to launch attacks on Mumbai in Nov 2008 ? How much tolerance you want India to show ? It is only reacting with all the restraint. But Pakistanis fail to appreciate. Even today India's demand is very reasonable that please punish the masterminds of 26/11. But what is the result ??? Insincerity. So the problem lies at Pakistan's end.
Junaid Hashmat Jan 21, 2013 01:01pm
And what about you Indians hidden agenda , han ? Come on be prudent and rational. When you point finger towards other the remaining four turns towards you. Who sent back Pakistani hockey players ? Who is threatening Pakistani women cricket team ? Why don't India take action against them. If they can't bear our players, who are like ambassadors then how could they accept peace talk ? Be brave and also accept your side faults to.
open minded Jan 21, 2013 11:52am
Every one loves peace,trade which makes economies strong. But brutal behaviour of Pakistanis barbaric act pressurised and exploited the sentiments of Indians. Pakistani army hidden agenda is no peace because there religious parties do not support them for this.
Shankar from India Jan 21, 2013 11:51am
The day there is a long march in Pakistan against the Mumbai attack or beheading of Indian soldiers, I will believe we can be friends! There is no point in blaming the politicians for the hatred between our countries! Rest is all wishful thinking!
Rajesh Jan 21, 2013 11:50am
Any sensible Indian or Pakistani will agree to Fazia. We (Peace loving Indian and Pakistani) are already in Majority, but We need to convert people who are violent or with hatred in their heart to peace loving. Insallah, this will become an realty.
Gautam Jan 22, 2013 03:10am
'East Pakistans LIBERATION' Click... Thats a kodak moment right there. Obviouly, Liberation can't be a bad thing and we endeavour to liberate Balochistan soon. As a matter of fact, Bangladeshis are eternally grateful to India for their Liberation. Sure we have disagreements and grevieances at times but its nothing that good ol' 'Talks' cant resolve. Compare this with Pakistan the international migraine, no amount of talks can bring peace with a country where hatred has percolated right down to the DNA.
Dev Jan 21, 2013 11:44am
Having unfriendly relations with India suits the Pakistani army. The army would need justification for eating up most of the Pakistani budget if we have friendly relations between India and Pakistan. Politicians in Pakistan are mere puppets, they hardly have any say when it comes to relations with India.
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 12:07pm
LOL When I see 0-35 thumbs on a post that seems to defend Pakistan, I smell fish. Here in Canada
does not matter Jan 22, 2013 01:16am
1. Of course the strongs are the calm ones which proves why India still does not wage a war with Pakistan despite many provocation. Who is strong, has been proved in past wars so no need to get into the details. 2. The trading nature is not something which comes from a religion. Arabs were traders long before Islam. Its not by choice that they are traders or Islam has no role into it, they had no options. They did not have anything to grow in the sand so trading was the only option for them. Yet again, Islam had no role. 3. Yes, most Indians give importance to family over individuality but this also give them a sense of bond with others and that is why it is easier for Indians to adapt and get along well when in foreign land and foreign culture unlike the Muslims who find it very hard to adjust in foreign countries except in middle east. 4. May be you would like to ask millions of Pakistanis now if they would prefer peace over freedom or otherwise. Right now, they are neither free nor peaceful. The minorities are almost extinct and we all know how free other Islamic sects are other than sunnis. And if peace and freedom were so mutually exclusive, Europe would have been hell by now. So may be Pakistan is a special case where normal logics don't work anymore. 5. Had it not been the Hindu religion in India, it would have been doing worse considering the so much diversities. It is the tolerance of Hindu religion which has allowed the growth of other religion while in Pakistan the Islamists are fighting over the superiority of sects. 6. All Pakistanis are blaming US for the situation in their country and cursing the leaders why they had to join the US camp in first place. This is just an alternate perspective.
Sam Jan 22, 2013 02:46pm
india is only returning the treatment in baluchistan what pakistan has been doing in kashmir.. so its tit for tat.. unless you cease the fascination of kashmir, india won't stop its 'strategic assests' in baluchistan.
Indigo Jan 22, 2013 01:16am
Yes for sure Master Race. This Master Race called Punjabi is so ashamed to even speak its own native language at home!! They are shunned to speak punjabi and rather prefer to speak urdu which is the Mohajir Master Language!! No wonder the Master Race of Pakistan are a major part of PK Taliban. No wonder they dominate the Army of Pakistan and "Cannibalize" the development of the country. They are self serving and prevent the development of the Muhajir, Pathan and Balochi community. Why does a "Fauji Foundation" get into the business of making cornflakes? Doesnt make sense. Punjabis moved the capital of pakistan from Karachi to Islamabad to corner all the government jobs. This crippled the Muhajir development. Punjabis have spread to Balochistan province and taken over the land from the Balochis. Punjab is a power hungry state within Pakistan. It prevents Pakistan from development and coming to peace with its neighbor India. Mohajir community seek peace with India and want to progress forward. Stop bragging about your punjabi this and that...The stark reality is this. "If we leave Punjabis together, they will eventually double and triple cross each other and cut each others throat to cause chaos." We all have to thank Muhajirs for creating Pakistan. This prevented so much of future violence between Sikh Jats and Muslim Jats in an unified Punjab! Now all we need is for Muhajirs to get a separate state in pakistan and the capital to be moved back to Karachi. This will make Pakistan progressive as the power will be back to the Sindhi/Muhajir heartland; this will make Pakistan treat Balochis with respect and come to terms of peace with India for progress of the region. Tick Tock....Muhajir Subha ...Tick Tock..coming soon to a Karachi near you
a.k.lal Jan 21, 2013 02:14pm
Dear Faiza Why can,t we be good neighbours, like germany and russia
vj Jan 21, 2013 02:38pm
Protest is a international news when the gathering has atleast 1000 people
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 01:51pm
To understand India/Pakistan relations, there are some theoretical factors. 1. The strong are calm, the weak emotional. Pakistan reaction to India provocation is always measured, Indian always emotional. Strength is not measured by nukes or armies, but by our outlook towards reality around us. 2. Hinduism is a religion of agrarian era stressing the Family. Islam is a religion of trade, based on the Individual.
G.A. Jan 21, 2013 01:07pm
There was a protest in Pakistan against Mumbai attack but the Indian media, true to its nature, went into overdrive in spitting venom against all Pakistanis and calling for war when Pakistanis too were shocked with this terrorist attack.
does not matter Jan 22, 2013 03:32pm
Ah so US is not the big daddy of Pakistan now?? Oh i know i know you just found out that real daddy is China.
AHA Jan 22, 2013 01:31am
Excellent post. It is not easy to write with composure and sense on an issue that is so close to your heart, and where emotions can run crazy. Both side made mistakes at the time of the partition, but it is important to move on. But there needs to be a will to move on. Europe did it, after the end of WW II, and also after the collapse of the Soviet Union. But Europeans have been a sensible people. Unfortunately, there is no will on the side of those in Pakistan that have the real power. Even some powerful groups in India are also full of hate.
does not matter Jan 22, 2013 01:57am
The reason for the civil wars in all those countries you mentioned are so very different than what is happening in Pakistan. The massacre in Pakistan is going on is not for the welfare of the people but in the name of religion which would leave Pakistani society all bashed up. Its a power struggle between political elite, controlling army and Islamic terrorists. All bad for Pakistan. If political elitists win, they will keep plundering the people like they do now. If army wins, it will keep Pakistan as a security state rather than making it an economic power and if Islamic terrorists win, well then they will take Pakistan to 1400 years back. Who so ever wins in this battle, the real losers will be the Pakistani people. Also, one often needs to look at the past to chose the right path in future. There is a reason history is taught and wise ones make the best of it.
does not matter Jan 22, 2013 02:25am
May be you can give a benefit of doubt to Pakistani people on Osama but let me ask about the assassination of Salman Taseer. How many Pakistani think that his murder was an act of barbarism? The way Qadri was offered Garlands by so called educated lawyers on the street , it is a reality of Pakistani society.
anil Jan 21, 2013 01:43pm
@Faiza I am neither a North Indian nor possess any religious ground to blame the neighboring country . Hatred for Pakistanis among Indians are buried deep in the History of subcontinent and it's obvious. We have some other neighboring countries culturally very very different from us,some are similar to us , but certainly don't possess any hatred for them . We both countries view two different personalities as our ideologies which can't stay together and personally I can't even accept that . In school days , I had read something like this "you can't make friendship with someone by doing harm to him". But still if you think Education is the only key to bring these countries closer , then you are wrong .I would have been happy if you had asked your question of "similarity of blood" to your forefathers . We can certainly heal our wounds , but the scars remind us our past .
Devil Jan 22, 2013 11:13am
On the contrary.. Majority of us believe that India and Pakistan can never be friends !! We shouldn't always find an escape by blaming Politicians and Army, they play the easiest cards to distract minds from the main issues . Till the people of both the countries do not understand that its equally harmful to them to be in the war. Whether a common Pakistani or an Indian, we are always at loss (direct or indirect) when both the countries go hostile against each other. Civilizations which do not learn from past can not succeed !! We haven't learned an iota from our past .. at least 65 years !!
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 02:12am
Pakistanis do not want any contest with our Indian friends. However, it is best to have a rational dialogue rather than Bollywood style emotionalism - misunderstanding, fake betrayals, then make-ups, and only then a happy ending. Hindus and Muslims lived in peace together, and wanted to continue to do so. Jinnah was a firm believer of co-existence, but the sudden debacle of English by Hitler brought these political differences with Nehru too quickly to fore, and took the form of religion. Jinnah wanted a Justice minded Republic with proportional representation, Nehru wanted a Law and Order Democracy with winner take all. Gandhi ji was sympathetic to Jihhah, but Patel and Party refused to budge. The rest is history. India lost more than land. It lost Jinnah, a man who looked 100 years forward. In double jeopardy India was saddled with 15 years of Nehru and his misguided socialism that was finally laid to rest. Today it is easy to gloat over Pakistan
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 02:35am
In a population of 180,000,000 even if 10,000,000 consider Salman Taseers murder to be ok (I am exaggerating wildly), that is only 1 in 20.
george Jan 21, 2013 01:53pm
Let their people eat grass, as long as they have no objection, Indians have no right to advise otherwise. Pakistan was born out of hatred, and they will die of hatred.
Naresh Sharma Jan 23, 2013 09:49am
Haa Haaa.... Have you ever heard of war crime of Russian Army they raped every Berlin Woman from 8 to 80 during world war 2
Amit Jan 21, 2013 11:08am
@Fazia - there is a misplaced sense of patriotism, one-upmanship and history. Add 2 it religious sentiments AND MOST IMPORTANTLY Politicians, who aggravate the situation. Solution is EDUCATION, EDUCATION and some more of right EDUCATION.
ksmat Jan 21, 2013 01:25pm
I agree with the central theme of this article. It is unfortunate that the innocents have to pay the price for the activities of the few. I disagree with the statement that 'north Indians believe that all Pakistani's are terrorists'. I would ask where the Shiv Sena and RSS are most prevalent? As a Punjabi I can say with absolute certainty that the vast majority of Punjabis and Sikh Punjabis do not think that all Pakistanis are terrorists.
Waseem Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 01:55pm
Another apologistic article on Pakistani media, against the jingoism infesting Indian media, politicians, and actors, in the middle of newly found patriotism and urge for a villain. Firstly, India just refused all type of investigation on the issues, where Pakistani side blamed them killing one Paklistani soldier, and than Pakistan denies the killing 'beheading' of indian soldier. So, let them enjoy their war of path. Pakistani economy has minimum reliance on Indian economy, and Indians would need access to Afghanistan and Central Asia today or tomorrow, and their big dad American would not allow them to get through Iran (like gas pipeline), so let's wait untill this revenge mantra wilts down back to co-operation and usual breakfast in Amrritsat, Lunch in Islamabad, and dinner in Kabul :)
vj Jan 21, 2013 02:31pm
I guess a lot of Pakistanis residing in the area near India border like Islamabad Karachi, Hyderabad, Lahore have relatives in India (which makes half of Pakistan). The other half of Pakistanis near Iran border dont consider themselves Pakistanis. So it is in the interest of Pakistan to have friendly relation with India, to serve its own citizens who want to part of pakistan. For india, the population of Indians with relatives in pak is near zero % with respect to the total population of India now you decide for yourself who is need of india-pak friendship. If you think it is pak, then exterminate all terrorist. if you cant do it allow UN or nato to do it. Unless otherwise army is in control of govt and there no no terrorist coming from across there cannot be friendship.
abbastoronto Jan 21, 2013 02:26pm
Bollywood is instrumental in forming Indian public opinion. The portrayal of Pakistan and Muslims if not negative has never been positive. Does Bollywood reflect India at large. Bollywood does double damage. On the one hand it reinforces negative opinion in India. On the other, the bootleg in Pakistan stresses that Indians do not like Muslims or Pakistan. The people of Pakistan always have been hate-free and remain so. Even a Hindi ditti says it well "A Hindu's rasoi and a Muslim's heart are always spotless". Show me one classic Bollywood movie that gives a positive view of Muslims compared with the endearing image of Hindus and Sikhs in the 1959-60 classic Kartar Singh made in Lahore? To be fair the 1999 Indian Punjabi "Shaheed-E-Mohabbat" based on Boota Singh/Jamil Ahmed had a somewhat mature view of Pakistan if not Muslims. That is a good beginning. Perhaps Bollywood can help where the State and the Media will not. But then, will it make money?
abbastoronto Jan 22, 2013 03:17am
does not matter: Greetings Many thanks for taking the time to respond to my posts line by line. As Churchill said, jaw jaw jaw is better than war war war. 1. Over the killings of the Indians and Pak soldiers, Pakistan has offered to have the matter investigated by UN. But India says no. India is acting like a Bollywood heroine who feels betrayed. Who is acting strong and who weak? 2. Religions are socio-economic systems that efficiently answer to needs of the age. They are tied to prevailing economy. Arab economy was trading, but its social contract was outdated. The feat of Mohammed AS was to bring it in line with economy. Later Islam became inefficient because its surroundings change to agrarian. 3. Every society needs family and larger groupings. However, it is a fact that India stresses family, and Pakistan the individual. Just watch Lollywood, or our TV social dramas. 4. Yes, millions of Pakistanis would prefer peace over freedom, but not peace at any cost. 75 years ago the Europeans decided to face Hitler and lose 60,000,000 rather than have peace at his terms. 5. Hinduism suited well for agrarian India. However, in the emerging trading era after 1000 AD, India could not have maintained its 1/3 to 1/4 of its worldwide share of wealth unless it was for Islam. Compare India of Maurya, Ashoka, Gupta, and Muslims (all 1/3 to 1./4) to under the English who un-traded India and reduced its share to 2% by 1900. The Pakistani sectarian war is about economics and politics. One sect prefers free trade and universality (peace with Hindus and Christians), the other does not. 6. Some Pakistanis are blaming the US, but reality is otherwise. Dr. Cameron Munter, the just retired US Ambassador thought differently (see his youtube talks). The purpose of civil wars is to align the internal social contract with the needs of the time. These conflicts are never short-lived nor bloodless. But a system always emerges from a civil war stronger. The present carnage in Pakistan is a symbol of its strength, not weakness. The Pakistanis may want to go back to a system 1,400 year old. But India has gone 2,400 years back to Democracy. Pakistanis reject Democracy but prefer the Republic that Socrates stood for but was put to death by Democracy. Mohammed AS set up a Republic in Medina. Pakistanis are serious for peace with anyone. I am not sure what Namaste really means, but Salam means peace. In urbanization, Pakistan is ahead of India. Pakistan is no longer a purely agrarian society but an industrial/trading one. In today's world land and water are less important. England had enough of neither but ruled the world (over India too). Pakistani youth does not buy the tale that India is a villain. The madressahs are a foreign import from Saudi Arabia, and are a temporary evil. Here today, gone tomorrow. Best wishes
suneel Jan 22, 2013 02:46pm
1. Pakistan is not a country but an idea? WHAT AN IDEA SIR JI 2. Pakistan and USA share a common psyche? THEY SHARE DRONES, ONE GIVE AND ANOTHER TAKE. 3. Capitalist West is declining, and Islam rising? ISLAM IS RISING ONLY IN POPULATION. ISLAM OF SUFIS WAS APPRECIATED BY MANY BUT ISLAM OF MULLAH IS HATED BY ALL. 4. Quran is the manual for efficient, frugal, optimal living for this age? ALL RELIGIOUS TEXT ARE OUTDATED INCLUDING QURAN, BIBLE, GITA. 5. These struggles are always bloody? AFTER SIKHS, HINDUS, Xtians, AHMADIS; NOW IT IS THE TURN FOR SHIAS AND HAZARAS. WHEN WILL THIS STOP? 6. Pakistan has a worldwide network of 10,000,000 diaspora? WHEREEVER THEY LIVE IN (NOT ALL) BUT BECAUSE OF FUNDAMENTALIST ELEMENTS WITHIN THAT DIASPORA
Amna Jan 22, 2013 03:49am
NO peace with India. thats all!
Waseem Akhtar Jan 21, 2013 02:27pm
talking about socities, slipping of Indians towards jingoism and extreme ideas are more obvious. you can imagine the indian shouting with faoming mouths when they discuss anything about Pakistan and Islam. I really enjoy their mental unabalance :D
AHA Jan 22, 2013 01:45am
1971 was entirely and absolutely Pakistan's fault. India simply used the opportunity we provided them.
anonymous indian Jan 21, 2013 10:08pm
You got your point wrong when you said "There are a lot of educated people in Pakistan, so many that they write very interesting articles in Dawn and other websites, which you Indians flock to read and comment on". The fact is There are a lot of educated people in India, who read articles in all balanced news websites across the world every morning and yes do consider Dawn as being one of them. Yes - we do comment on things when we find it bizzare - reflective of complete ignorance about India across the border - for example the other day there was a news item in "The Nation" that called India a country of "baniyas" which is atrocious. Banias are hardly 5-6% of India's population. Another day on "Times Now" an Indian news channel a retd. Pak military person called India, a country administered and governed by "brahmins" (the truth being that only 2 states out of 28 states and 7 union territories have a brahmin CM). The bureaucracy is hand picked by the CM and his cabinet and comprises of a large pool of OBC's). India's Army Chief is a Sikh, the second Sikh officer to rise to that rank of general after General JJ Singh. The Intelligence bureau that looks after India's internal security is headed by a Muslim IPS officer. BJP's PM candidate for 2014 Narendra Modi is from the backward caste but is immensely popular among urban "forward caste" middle class voters. The point is most of the commentators across the border seem to be living in a fossilized pre-partition era with antiquated perceptions about India. It's time that they read more about India and recognize that over the last 30 years India has transformed before giving commentary about it.
Rahul Jan 21, 2013 12:50pm
Nice article..
Pankaj Patel(USA) Jan 21, 2013 06:15pm
Faiza,I understand your feeling and frustration you feel about not being able to normalize relations,but reality is different.These type of offenses and denials from Pakistan are not new so Indian public opinion is very skeptical about peace with Pakistan.We all know who wields power in Pakistan and non state actors are very powerful too.So Pakistan is not Bangladesh or Nepal where any agreement with government is a done deal.In Pakistan civil society is like drawing room think tank and not serious actors.Even with all my good will I sincerely believe that free trade and liberal visa system will be a disaster for India.We are not ready for that yet.
anil Jan 22, 2013 03:44pm
Yes , you are right . But then Mathematicians have to drop their concepts like statistics , probability etc . When you know most of the terrorists have links to Pakistan in some way or other , How can you close your eyes ?Generalizations are made after a study , not blindly.
Alvin (India) Jan 22, 2013 02:19pm
and this is coming from a person who is sitting hundreds of miles away from pakistan.. way to go mate.... have you really came face to face with the actual truth in your pakistan today.... i suggest come for a 15-20 day visit, stay in karachi, peshawar or quetta for few days and you will know.... i could have rebutted all your above stories, however i think its of no use.. so i rest my case here.
Baig Jan 21, 2013 08:56pm
And until Baluchistan is liberated
dkg Jan 21, 2013 01:20pm
Dear Faiza, thanks for such a thoughtful article but let us all remember one thing - our action speaks louder than our words. You may be correct that most pakistanis are not anti-india but whats the use of that sentiment? The same pakistani society is fastly slipping towards extremism, corruption, nepotism and worst- has no interest in their national interest. the way pakistani society is supporting terrorists organisation, extremists in the name of religion and actively taking part in them, despite knowing the fact that it is ultimately damaging the society itself, led us to think that it is self-destructing society. So what to think and expect of that society which has no respect for themselves, their own culture and their own country? how could they help us in our endeavour to bring peace in the region when they themselves are not interested to bring peace in their own country and society? The current and past actions of pakistani society forced us to think and forged the thinking that we are own our own and we have to fight this fight ourselves and no pakistani will ever fight against and oppose the wrong doing against us by them as we have seen the response towards mumbai attacks etc in pakistan. Peace is necessary but it should be like the one in garden rather the one in cemetery !! I don't want to blame anybody but will repeat again "Your action speaks louder than your words"
Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 06:09am
Yes. You should not forget bangladesh. 93000 POW all returned safely.
akoi Jan 22, 2013 06:14am
I have my neighbours Kamran and Wasim bhai. They hate pakistan to core and blames pakistan for everyhing against India..accha hua hamrein buzurg waha migrate nahi hua.
Sam Jan 22, 2013 02:35pm
Like pakistan which is the most unsafe place for any individual other than SUNNI MUSLIM... lol..
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 06:15am
Completely agree with Amir. Kaly, please, can we consign the religious conversion nonsense to the dustbin of history? It has been done, ages ago. That's how the world moves on. What is your plan? Do you want to convert them back? And how will it help the world today? Even Pakistanis' supposed turning away from a South Asian heritage to an Arabian one is an internal social issue of Pakistan, and have little bearing on relations with India. Let them sort it out themselves. Today's problems between the two countries have very little to do with what transpired hundreds of years ago.
Sam Jan 22, 2013 02:33pm
indian women is busy working out and making money for her family livelihood.. she doesn't has time for this nonsense... thats only for us, you and fellow bloggers.... btw where are pakistani women, or have you guys kept them inside their veil and mouth shutted ;) in india at least they have the freedom to work, roam around and support their family... were is pakistani women in this... do you know the % of pakistani women working in your few urban cities..get your facts before talking hypocritically.. rapes are law and order problem which i am sure will be addressed like any functioning society... do you have even a law and order to even think of one ;)
Jaffar Jan 22, 2013 07:19am
Dear HS ROY, Agree with you 100% , Just Leave is Alone pls don't come to India
Frustrated Indian Jan 22, 2013 07:22am
Peace can prevail only if there is political will and wisdom. It may be true that some radical group wants to derail the peace process. But then it is the duty of both Governments to disassociate from such groups immediately. But it seems that does not happen and denials based on political mileage persists.
Mahipal Singh Rawat Jan 22, 2013 02:30pm
To some extend, the writer is right, because I am from north India. It is not that I want to fight with Pakistan or destroy it but yes, I want all relation to be eliminated with your country. No Aman ki Asha or cricket, you be happy with your Islamic life and I am happy at my home. For the part concerned with history, I would like to forget me and my child that we had anything comman with you.
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 07:37am
Mr Akhtar, even your own country has outgrown your juvenile conspiracy theories. Give it a rest.
Rakesh Jan 22, 2013 08:43am
@Abbastoronto: Thanks for your wishes and I wish you well too. You are oblivious to the fact that centuries ago Chanakya wrote Arthashastra, a treatise on economic policy, administration and strategy. And that is only one part of Indian (not only Hindu) heritage. Hinduism has also contributed immensely to the field of Astro-physics, medicine, mathematics, chemistry and many other sciences which are essential for societies to develop. By the way, many including me, believe that Hinduism is not a religion in the traditional sense, but a way of life. It is inherently secular. Religions are essentially a way of life and an individual has the right to choose his/her path, In India, the constitution awards each citizen the right to choose his/her religion and guarantees that people of all faiths shall be treated equally. So I fail to understand how you claim that India stresses on the family honour rather than on individual freedoms. Perhaps someday you should visit my country to see for yourself the beauty of our diversity. I am sure we will look after you well, because most of swear by "Athidhi-Devo-Bhava", which translates to "Let the guest be your God", just as "Namaste" roughly means "I salute the God in You" Wishing you all the best Rakesh :-) :-) :-)
anonymous Jan 22, 2013 12:31pm
It is right that Sub-continent was our forefather's place ( not India ) . But we were definitely not Hindus at all , and we fought for our freedom , don't sound like that Pakistan was given as a gift to us .
Stranger Jan 22, 2013 08:49am
The 2 countries need not be 'friendly'. Let them not squabble non stop. Thats enough as of now .
Kris Jan 22, 2013 03:16pm
@ abbastoronto ." Pakistan has a worldwide network of 10,000,000 diaspora fully integrated in the Pakistani
Rao Jan 22, 2013 09:00am
Punjabi power and dominance in Pakistan society is the main problem....Their discrimination against "Black Bengalis" led to vivisection of Pakistan
No to India Jan 22, 2013 09:04am
According to Indian women rights every 10 second a woman get raped in India. These women should not be protesting outside since these stats shows a serious concern about their safety. According to BBC India is the most unsafe place for a woman. What a disgraceful title.
Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 09:28am
Oh yes. Pakistan is very safe for minorities specially hindu, shias and christians. No hindu girl was forcefully married to any body
No to India Jan 22, 2013 09:28am
I am Punjabi and I love Mohajir. Please do not talk about breaking up Pakistan that our forefather created with their blood. We speak more Urdu that Punjabi. Pakistani is our identity not nationalism of local states. I love Altaf bahi too. Love and Peace from Lahore.
Ahmed Sultan (India) Jan 22, 2013 09:30am
Peace. You wont understand it
imran Jan 22, 2013 04:50pm
Well, its taken both countries 66 years to get to this stage, yet they consider themselves as enemies. We probably are only 2 countries on this earth who claim to be world's powers, weapons wise, education wise, yet here we are. Thing is these countries will never be friends, no matter how much they try because there are elements on both sides who just simply wont let this happen, so its better they both sideline eachother. You your way and we our way seem to be best way, atleast in this no one will get hurt, for how long innocents will pay the price for something which have nothing to do with them. having said that i am not against the friendship of these 2 countries, but it simply wont happen. It has taken 66 years years to kill eachothers soldiers on LOC. May be just leave eachother alone, get on with it, but who cares, there are bigger interests involved here.
bilal Jan 22, 2013 04:52pm
karkare was killed by those terrorists, nothing to ask. terrorist caught alive was most photographed ,but obvious, nothing to ask which soldier initiated fight , nothing to ask, but mutilating bodies is not acceptable on either side India played critical role in mukti bahini because east pakistani refugees were flooding indian territory, west pakistani soldiers were looting and raping women in east pakistan. nothing to ask..Bangladesh was accepted as a country by the world..bangladesh is now a much stronger country and very peaceful.. compared to pakistan... Did you ask??
Different View Jan 22, 2013 05:02pm
I think it is Pakistan who has to sort out so many things before we can even think of having friendly relations between the two countries. I strongly believe that the Partition of India on the basis of religion was one of the gravest mistakes of centuries. It was done long time ago, and we are over it. It can't be undone. We have to let the bygones be bygones. It is water under a bridge. But it is amusing for an observer like me to see Pakistan STILL struggling with its identity. It is an Islamic republic, but is closest to the communist China, who officially has no religion. It is an ally of the US at the same time it is allowing the US to attack its own people with Drone. It has weak economy and is significantly dependent on outside help. It has no friendly relations with any of its neighbours. The civilian government is corrupt and ineffective. The army controls the foreign relations. There is no point you and us discussing peace, if the Pakistani Army doesn't want it.
Hemant Jan 22, 2013 05:11pm
1.India & Pakistan are both 'Garib'. 2.India & Pakistan are both 'nuclear powers'. 3.India & Pakistan both have to depend on 'Angrez' to adapt new technologies. 4.Why speak of war? 5.Speak of Bijli, Pani,Naukri,Ghar!!!! I think let us fight for our daily roti and'5' than do business of 'Angrez' weapons(Read swedish,Belgian,american weapon factories).
MKB Jan 23, 2013 06:28am
Dear Faiza, Thank you very much for your appearance in Dawn after long time. The India Pakistan relation is very complex one. It is not confined at the boarder. A learned Professor of Delhi
Burhan Jan 22, 2013 05:25pm
Very true. These PAKISTANIS (most of whom are Punjabis) still see 'Indians' and 'Hindus' through their pre-Partition 1947 prism. They think the whole of India is Pinjab. They do not know anything about the rest of 'India'. Their image about India begins in Kashmir, goes to Punjab, then Delhi, Lucknow, 'Mumbai' and ends at Hyderabad.
Different View Jan 22, 2013 05:44pm
Abbas in wonderland?
Asif Jan 22, 2013 06:10pm
Is truth is that bitter to you.
Javaid Jan 22, 2013 06:18pm
Here you Go with your proof NEW DELHI: Indian External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid has backed a statement regarding Hindu terrorism made by the country
Imran Jan 22, 2013 07:10pm
Only India can stop itself from becoming superpower
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 07:17pm
You need to throw out your old Pakistani school text books and read real history and anthropology, my friend. You're just making a fool of yourself with every comment of yours.
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 07:18pm
Oh, I'm sure you have lots of conspiracy theories to offer on Israel...:-)
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 07:22pm
And every well informed person in India is laughing at Mr Shinde. Even the BJP, after full throated protests yesterday, has realized that there's no point. These periodic juvenile stunts by Congress before every election are being treated as the comic relief that they truly are...:-)
Md Imran Jan 22, 2013 07:26pm
Ksmat, thanks for saying that. Don't forget, we Pakistanis have not forgotten your pain, and after Kashmir, we'll ensure that the sikhs get their rightful Khalistan inshaallah.
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 07:26pm
Isn't quoting from the CIA factbook against your religion? BTW, population of India: 1.2 billion. Population of Pakistan: 176 million.
veer canada Jan 22, 2013 07:28pm
i dont know who let you in canada .
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 07:36pm
abbastoronto: perfect example of all that is wrong with today's Pakistan - denial, hubris, living in an alternate reality, externalizing all faults, hypocrisy. A fanatic with an internet connection. His Pakistan is an utopia which is the nation that people all over the world are dying to emulate, and enemies are desperate to destroy. The only other mindset that even comes close to this is the North Korean one. And I think that is a close parallel. He gloats about his imaginary homeland, while real people die on the streets every day, and the wretchedly poor starve in its villages.
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 07:40pm
Really, a Pakistani critisizing women's rights in another country?? It would be comical if it just wasn't so sad...
JoeSmith Jan 22, 2013 07:44pm
I sincerely feel that the improvement of relationships in not really that hard to conceive. I cannot speak from Pakistan's standpoint but from India's standpoint - (a) stop supporting cross-border terrorism - people like Hafiz Sayeed, Lakhvi etc. are destroying the ambitions of millions by creating this hatred on both sides of the border (b) Get over Kashmir - let's take the current status and come to an agreement on LOC as the border and ACCEPT it as the border. By these simple acts Pakistan will win hearts and minds of common Indian people (not just the ones who comment on this website and carry iPads) and at that point the politicians cannot do anything. IF we are one people then we have to ACT like ONE people.... unless we are NOT so...and we want to let politicians and armies to fleece this issue.
Shubs Jan 22, 2013 07:48pm
Stop pushing jihadi filth across our borders, and we can guarantee you that you will be left alone within no time. The rest of the world can easily leave you alone, but we, unfortunately, are stuck with you on our border. India today is not the old sentimental Punjabi establishment with pre-partition sob stories. The new generation has no connections with your country and sees it as the hell-hole that most other nations in the world do. We want to have nothing to do with you. Unfortunately, we can't just make you go-away.
Imran Jan 22, 2013 07:57pm
Calm down Dr Sb, clam down
Ajmal Khur Jan 22, 2013 08:16pm
I'm surprised at how poor most people's English is. Their comments make them look uneducated and ill-informed.
ktd Jan 22, 2013 08:32pm
Really u believe Pak is world power education wise???
Devil Jan 22, 2013 09:08pm
I think you didn't get the point here! Me too want my country to be a Super Power and I know that will happen soon bro ! But you won't disagree that a lot of our resources get wasted on defense. Both of the countries have huge population under poverty which can be benefited if resources are channelized to the development and upliftment rather than spending on arms !! And food for thought "Why do an issue emerge on the border only when there is some internal issue in the country (either one)" ? Think man! Think !! And shall we stop boasting about being a super power now? we have long way to go before self-proclaiming that! Bossing around SAARC nations doesn't give us the status of a Super Power ! Though we have grown tremendously in two decades.. still we have to go a long way and have to fix myriad internal issues !!
Jag Nathan Jan 22, 2013 09:09pm
The idea of peace between India and Pakistan is laughable. Its a myth and anyone who believes anything will change is whistling Dixie. With an unbridled population growth in Pakistan, there are thousands of young men with no marketable education and skill sets, who are excellent cannon fodder for the jihadis. And jihadis hold on the Pakistani nation is just intensifying. An open conflict is only a matter of time and Indians are under no illusion. Only our secular bleeding heart politicians in the Congress and on the left believe in this myth of peace with Pakistan. The average Indian has no interest in this idea and no faith in these pipe dreams.
Rao Jan 23, 2013 06:58am
Many of them think that Allah will help them in defeating the infidels of India.
menon Jan 22, 2013 10:33pm
Who want to play IPL and other cricket? Stars from which country is running to India to take role in In Indian movies and songs? Why are you watching Indian TVs and movies? Why do you run to India for medical treatment ? Now tell me otherwise...
anil gupta Jan 22, 2013 10:33pm
Speaking english is not equal to educated person. Very average people work in call centres with good command of english, in bangalore ever autowallas speak good english. Wheras I with doctors degree from reputed college has average english.
menon Jan 22, 2013 10:36pm
they do same with US. US is their enemy but majority of Pakistani wants to run to USA.
does not matter Jan 22, 2013 10:54pm
First of all you should know that Aryan invading theory has been debunked already. The people of India has no commonality with Europeans and so that busts the myth of Aryan invasion. The Aryans are the original people of Indian sub continent. Having said that, Hindu or Vedic religion existed long before the time when middle east or Europe had no notion of civilization. The society had a structure and this structure was based on qualities rather than skin color. Word "Varna" in sanskrit means category and not color. Now these categories were knowledge, fighting ability, trading ability or labour . Depending upon the quality of the person, he would have fit in one of these. The categorization used to be done during the schooling days in ancient India and not by birth. Later this categorization was based on Birth which of course was the misuse of the system. Buddhism evolved in India not because of caste system but because of the complex rituals as prescribed in Vedas. The vedas were in sanskrit while common people's language was prakrit or pali. Only few who could under stand the Vedas had the knowledge. Also the complex nature of Vedas made people uninterested in them. Because of simple language of Siddartha's preaching, buddhism was attractive to mass. The Vedic religion has always been a religion for seekers and people with intellectual. Common mass always had problem understanding it because people's brain are not that developed to grasp what vedas are talking about. In the world, most of the people are common people , not intellectuals. They need simple instructions like don't steal, don't lie, don't kill and that is why you have abrahamic religions which were for these common mass societies. Now for the criticism of caste system in Vedic religion, is there any religion which does not have some sort of exploit system? Do muslims from Saudi Arab consider them equal to Muslims from South Asia? Do Shias and Sunnis consider each other equals? Are Qadianis and Ahmedis respected in Pakistan though they pray to same god as other people? Do European Christian consider the African ones equal to them? The answer is NO. As for women equality, the Vedic religion put the women in high respect and that is why we have so many goddesses. The women have not only played a major part in Hindu history but at times they are regarded more than men. How many example of woman leading in front can you cite from ancient Islam or Christianity?
Akil Akhtar Jan 22, 2013 11:09pm
Sorry to burst your bubble. Mukti Bahini training started years before trouble started in East Pakistan or Pakistani forces went there. It is important who started the LOC firing as it shows the intentions. Indians are sounding more like teh israelis now, do as we say not as we do.
Akil Akhtar Jan 22, 2013 11:12pm
I support Pakistan no matter what and no regurgitate the propoganda tha comes from across the border....
Akil Akhtar Jan 22, 2013 11:14pm
The likes and dislikes really show that the readers are overwhelmingly indian
menon Jan 22, 2013 11:19pm
"Pakistan is a Republic valuing individual freedom." Do you remember Malala? "The price of freedom is peace." , what a peace in Pakistan!!!!!!Everyday bombing, Karachi killing???Most favorable state for all the terrorist....Labelled as Terrorist country throughout the what a peaceful country Pakistan is!!!!!!!!!! Solid contribution through out the world...
Akil Akhtar Jan 22, 2013 11:19pm
Please show us the textbooks where it is taught. Also show us your text books where you are taught to love Pakistan. Indians are following the principle of keep repeatign a lie until people start believing it
Gautam Jan 22, 2013 11:22pm
O I see ! So Pakistan is in the American camp? That must've happened before the American 'Infidels' cleaned up 24 of your Official Assets in Salala other than the hundreds unofficial ones killed by drones everyday. Who you fooling by the way, you may still go back to the land you so long to be in; At least you will be at peace with your brothers and Jihad with them in person! You're a clown!
menon Jan 22, 2013 11:23pm
@abbadtoronto: Salam "Pakistan and Pakistanis have always been ahead of India in terms of looking to the future", you should have read article by Mrutaza Haider in Dawn about Indian Vs Pakistanis in your country Canada as well as US...All your concepts (mis) will be clear soon...
Akil Akhtar Jan 22, 2013 11:24pm
35000 Pakistanis have been killed by terrorists since sep 11 (funding for terrorists coming from Afghanistan/US/India) mostly Sunni muslims. How is it safe for Sunni Muslims please explain. It is obvious you want to exploit any killing of shias or any other minority for propoganda but they are also Pakistani and suffering the consequences of the law and order situation. BTW do you think you can question treatment of minorities after teh Massacre of Sikhs and Muslims in your own country in thousands not be terrorists but ordinary hindu citizens..
Akil Akhtar Jan 22, 2013 11:29pm
If you accept it then why go all red in the face about Pakistan meddling in kashmir as it is its strategic asset or there are different rules for Pakistan. BTW kashmir is a payback for bangladesh so who started it...?.
menon Jan 22, 2013 11:31pm
We don't want any nautanki of friendship but we are not interested in enmity. We are happy with our success and worried for our own problem. Please don't bother us...Please be happy with your own world...
Akil Akhtar Jan 22, 2013 11:36pm
You must live under a rock if you do not remember throwing stones at Pakistan criket team bus, threatening of Pakistan hockey player recently who had to leave, Many comedians and singers had to leave due to threats, how Adnan Sami Khans property ahs been confiscated (I am happy for the treatement a traitor like him is getting BTW) to name a few.
Akil Akhtar Jan 22, 2013 11:39pm
No muslim, christian or low caste hindus have been killed in india.....
david Jan 23, 2013 12:03am
And it's fast becoming india's daddy because it's carying a big stick this time around.
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 12:20am
abbas: Namaste means i bow down to the divinity in you. 1. Pakistan always want third parties to involve in the disputes related to India but Indian standpoint is clear. No third party. The two countries are sovereign enough to handle their disputes provided both are honest towards it and Pakistan has a history of back stabbing.So may be Pakistan needs the crutches of UN, India does not. 2. Religion are not social-economic but spiritual in nature. Russia did not and China does not need religion for their social economics. Of course economic conditions do impact the religion. The richer the society, lesser the need of religion. You will not find people more religious than south Asia any where else. 3. Spare me Lollywood. 4. When you are quoting Hitler and Europe, it was not peace , it was appeasement of Hitler by Europe, more like an Ostrich thing. Right now whatever can get you peace in Pakistan is worth every cost. 5. True, India lost its true potential after invasion of Islam and European countries. It indeed need some time to re gain that momentum and it will. 6. Every war has economic and political aspect and so Pakistan sectarian was is no exception. But comparing it to the revolution of France, Russia or China is injustice to these revolutions. Pakistani sectarian war is a struggle to grab power and rule over the mass but it hardly concerns itself with the uplifting of the mass. Does any of the parties in this sectarian war represent the common mass? How do you know Pakistan will not turn into next Somalia as a result of this war? 7. All across Pakistani media, there are people from army, education, politics that keep saying about why Pakistan had to go in US camp and why it did not follow the non alignment movement. 8. I don't understand how do you get the impression that Pakistani rejects democracy. Do you mean people of Pakistan are not mature enough to choose their own rulers? What else do you think is going to work for Pakistan? A system from neighboring Afghanistan? 9. Pakistan's seriousness for peace was very much evident from Kargill incident. 10. Do you think Pakistan is going any where with urbanization? It just means too many people are flooding to cities. It does not mean all of them have jobs. It does not mean Pakistan has big industries. The largest exports of Pakistan are still agriculture products. 11. You may think that Madrassa are temporary evil, but the situation in Pakistan tells otherwise. 12. May be the Pakistani youth you met are foreign educated ones, but better check the status of the ones being fed upon the history books of Pakistan where "Hindu" India is portrayed as ultimate evil to justify the need for separate homeland for Muslims.
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 12:28am
Going by your argument, when is Pakistan government conducting a plebiscite in Balochistan? Should not they be given a right to choose? How about that?
NASAH (USA) Jan 23, 2013 01:20am
AHA -- don't worry -- people like you are THE future of Pakistan -- and the future of Pakistan is NOT its past nor the present of Pakistan -- you are a true patriot -- because you are not in denial.
NASAH (USA) Jan 23, 2013 01:30am
So in your view what is the alternative for India with regard to Pakistan? You want a WAR with Pakistan - Mr. Jag Nathan?
Rao Jan 23, 2013 01:30am
There were nationwide protests to denounce a US bounty on Hafeez Saeed, a strategic asset of Pakistan
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 01:45am
I don't know how you get the idea that Jinnah believed in co existence while he himself that Hindu and Muslim are two nations and can not live together. Of course he had his own agenda for power and he knew with majorities of Hindu in a democratic model, his own political ambition won't go any where. I don't think India missed Jinnah much but Pakistan still does because his legacy has become a nightmare now. Nehru's socialism put a solid foundation for India in term of the institutes that he built. The country needed to stand on its own before competing with the world. Result can be seen today. 1. Pakistan WAS an idea and with freedom of Bangladesh , that idea has no value now. Pakistan is a system although a failed one. 2. Which field Pakistan is leading the world by the way? Oh yeah as per Google, Pakistan is the leading nation looking for all kind of sex on internet. Is that what your idea of leader is? 3. Islam is not rising. The terrorism in name of Islam is rising which world will soon put down. 4. When in panic and depression , people do rush to religion. Filling up of the mosque shows how depressed the people are in Islamic countries. But in Pakistan even mosque don't offer the solace. No one knows if the person beside is a suicide bomber. 5. At present Pakistan is going through a turbulent war which may prove fatal. 6. Are you depending upon the 1 million to change the fate of 180 Million? Long shot. Thanks for the wishes for India and i wish that sanity prevail in Pakistan.
Syed Jan 23, 2013 08:57am
Sorry, nobody in Pakistan wants re-unification with India. Please stop day dreaming
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 01:54am
This all so called propaganda is prime time news on Pakistani news channels. We are telling what Najam sethis, Pervez Hoodbhoys, Raza Rumis, Simarad Amrvis, Asghar Khans,Hasan Nissars are telling on those channels. And please don't tell me they are RAW agents.
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 01:56am
@Abbas Ah ..forgot to add, you need to listen more to Tareq Fateh than Zaid Hamid. Any way Tareq is from your own city, Toronto.
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 01:59am
Well at least to file a rape case women in India do not need 4 male witness.
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 02:04am
Well it will start with balochistan, followed by Sindh and KP. That will surely being peace between India and Pakistan ( read punjab).
Rao Jan 23, 2013 02:12am
What's the point....There will be more urban chaos ...No drinking water, no drainage and people living with sewer water flowing in the streets. At least in India efforts are being taken to set things right in cities, with urban renewal schemes, modern transport like mass rapid transport systems are being implemented simultaneously in all metropolitan cities. Show me one city in Pakistan, where a Mass rapid transport system is being at least planned..... Indian railway is running new trains every year, whereas Pakistan railway is closing down existing trains ....what a contrast.....You call this progress....LOL
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 02:13am
India is pretty much clear on all this. 1 Our army is ready to climb down provided both armies mark their current position so that it does not cause conflict in future and we save our right to claim in case Pakistan army does a Kargil like misadventure again. 2. Bangladeshis wanted freedom. Indian army had balls and so it did what it did. Your army has been trying for past 65 years and have tried everything from direct war to proxy war and terrorism and has failed.So don't be a cry baby. It was tit for tat. 3. Your government has not provided a single proof of involvement of India in Balochistan. So basically we should be telling you guys to stop your obsession with India and Indian kashmir and your politicians should not use Kashmir as an escape to shy away from your real issues like poverty, load shading, gas shortage, CNG and diesel rates, sectarian killings, gang wars in Karachi and terrorism.
Sam T Jan 23, 2013 02:15am
Ms. Mirza: If you are looking for the reasons "why Indian and Pakistani do not get along? I ask you look no further. Here are few reasons and hope it will solve your puzzle. 1.Indian history from 9th century to 1947 is full of atrocities committed by invaders which happen to be muslims. 2, Islamic rule in India converted poor non-muslims to Islam by force. 3. Pakistani Jihadits still believe that they can defeat Indian army after loosing three wars 4. And,because the tenets of Islamic interpretation
AHA Jan 23, 2013 02:30am
India also has its fair share of "young men with no marketable education". That argument, on its own is without merit.
AHA Jan 23, 2013 02:31am
Excellent post - very logical.
Rao Jan 23, 2013 02:34am
"whose people mutinied against Hari Singh/India in a pro Pakistan uprising in 1948"....Hazaras must now be regretting that ......
Rao Jan 23, 2013 02:42am
Yes....people who migrated to Pakistan are still called Mohajirs and they had to form a party called MQM to address the issues faced by them.....Whereas Manmohan Singh has become a Prime Minister, LK Advani is the leader of Opposition, IK Gujral, former PM of India.....all refugees from Pakistan The only Mohajir who became President, is Musharaff....only by toppling the civilian govt.
Rao Jan 23, 2013 02:49am
"then Delhi, Lucknow,
Rao Jan 23, 2013 02:58am
No wonder 90% of Pakistani militants are Punjabis. Their discriminating attitude towards Bengalis of East Pakistan and their refusal to share power with them led to vivsection of Pakistan.....
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 03:01am
So you confess this donor -taker relation between China and Pakistan indeed fits Pakistan. Good that settles the issue of fake "ghairat" that Pakistani media keep claiming. You should also see the video by Najam sethi for the reality of China-Pak relations.Now why does not China give cheap loans to India, well India does not need it or may be India is capable enough of borrowing money on market rate and pay back which is a sensible thing to do. Also India China has a business of about 60 Billion USD annually. Of course Chinese will take care of terrorism by wiping out all Muslims from Xin Xiang if they have to. After all they are communist and not a democracy. Point is what Pakistan is going to do that when that happens since Pakistan is the champion of Muslim cause from Kashmir to Palestine but has conveniently kept silent over the atrocities of PRC army on residents of Xin Xiang. For Pakistan and Afghanistan situation, if it is not animosity then i don't know what it is since most of the Afghans blame Pakistan for whatever is going on there. Even here in Virginia, Afghans love to hate Pakistanis. Every one sales its capabilities. Few years back it was Pakistan who sold its geological advantage to Americans to contains Russia. Now its India to contain China. Anything wrong in it? Only difference is US can't dictate India like it did Pakistan. India Bangladesh is not just co existence its co existence peacefully. Something that Pakistan needs to learn from its former half. Well Kashmiris have begun to understand where their future lies. There used to be slogans like "Kashmir banega Pakistan" which no one is shouting now and with time they will understand that being part of rising India is best for the future than being part of collapsing Pakistan, They are learning from Gilgit-Baltistan and Balochistan. And please do allow us some dreaming as well, after all we allowed you to dream about Kashmir for 65 years ;-) and then leave it on us whether we can make these technicolor dreams true or not.
John Jan 23, 2013 03:02am
I disagree - if this was a minor issue then it would not be blown out of proportion as it has been done currently.
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 03:19am
Same argument goes to you too. You are more bothered about kashmiri and Palestinians than your own Balcohis and Hazaras.
Rao Jan 23, 2013 03:21am
Imran suffers from selective amnesia
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 03:32am
This is the weakest argument ever. All are muslim boys and girls are going to school in Pakistan? Are all Muslims rich and happy and living happily in Pakistan? Do all of them have equal opportunity there? How many hindus are left in Pakistan and how many of them are in high posts in Pakistan? Are they allowed to become a PM or President in Pakistan ? Is there any non Muslim holding even a ministry in Pakistan?Have you thought may be your siblings were not intelligent enough to become a doctor or engineer due to such a tough competition in India?
Asim Jan 23, 2013 07:39am
@Faiza: I have seen some of the articles which clearly shows that you are inviting racist people to say whatever they want and non racist to calm/clarify/stop them. And you are doing so to get your good rating in the market. If not then you have carry on comments to bloggers...
Rao Jan 23, 2013 03:47am
Read this article on what a Karachi reporter Anthony Mascarenhas has written about Bangladesh War
Sahil, lahore Jan 23, 2013 03:51am
nobody knows abouts the negetive effects of nuclear war yet ,as people suffer generation to generation....and DNA get infects by radioactive elements and it affects everything.including air,water, soil, food.... our people r highly uneducated they even dont know what is a nuclear bomb, then how they will bear a N war......
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 03:52am
You will be surprised to know that 62 % youth of Pakistan consider "muslim" as their first identity than "Pakistani" nationality.
Monty, India Jan 23, 2013 03:56am
it is extrmemly shame on our people that they have negative thinking for each other, but it seems that terrorism is a big issue for India and Pak is victim of terrorism too but still both r unable to control it. terrorists are responsible for peace sabotage....only poor people suffer everytime, never a politician sufffer.....i think only youth can resolve these issue
hitesh Jan 23, 2013 03:58am
Pakistan got what it wanted from her mother country. Still they couldn't live in peace and keep on creating difficulties for India.Whenever they want War India give them War and when they get tired of War and asking for Peace India obliged to give Peace.Its high time Pakistan decide what they exactly want ? Re-unification ? In that case I would not like India to entertain Pakistan.
Rao Jan 23, 2013 03:59am
"being treated poorly by the tolerant and liberal indians"....only when Pakistanis break local laws like not declaring the money they are carrying or didn't pay tax on money earned in Inda.
does not matter Jan 23, 2013 03:59am
Please tell this to your fellow Mulims Pakistani Brother " No to India"
Imran Jan 23, 2013 08:40am
The problem is that India has failed to uphold the UN resolutions on Kashmir.
Syed Jan 23, 2013 09:15am
Dear Abbas, Very well said, i fully second you. Further, I have seen extremely negative comments from apparently indian readers being posted on Dawn, while at several instances my comments just to defend our point of view as a Pakistani were not posted. So i would say Dawn has to come clean as well on their policy of what they will post and what they won't, and I still assume its a Pakistani Newspaper. Lets see if this one goes through.
Raj Jan 23, 2013 04:22am
Imran Bhai, For the moment forget Khalistan or even Kashmir. Try to preserve what Jinna sahib had got for you guys. You guys have fretted away half of it already (and Bengalis are soooo thankful to you even now after 32 years)and once uncle sam takes-off from Kabul, May allah be with you guys. What will emerge from that god forsaken place called Afghanistan is anybodys guess, Continue to believe and support people like Hamid Gul, instead of Pakistan you will have a few god knows ... Dont worry about us across the border, we will some how manage without your help and rest assured we will take good care of the land and people across the border. Aap jaake itminan se apna ghar (or what ever is left of it) sambhaliye...Khuda hafis...
Anush Singh Jan 23, 2013 04:43am
Jag: I am an Indian and consider myself very patriotic. So please be civil and do not resort to foul and uncivilized language. This is a forum for educated and civilized people. I feel for my fellow Indians and employe about 50 people in India and do my best to give back to my country. But I also believe in the Universal goodness of most civilized humans. I believe there are peace loving Pakistnis (the silent majority) and there are some lunatic fringe elements (the ones that make a lot of noise and trouble). The same holds true in India - Majority of Indians want peace and friendship but we have the hardliners. I suggest we build bridges with the peace loving pakistanis and sideline the lunatic fringe. The majority of pakistanis stand to loose the most and so do the majority of Indians if we keep fighting with each other. We all agree that the killing of Indians by the Pak based militants is outrageous but thats all the more reason we do our best to sideline the loonies on both sides. We are one people separated by historical burden caused by Nehru and Jinnah with the connivance of the British. I live in the US and some of my best friends are Pakistanis. I can trust them with my life any day and so do they. So wake up and smell the Coffee.. the world is not as bad as you think it is.. unless you are wearing colored glasses .. the number of soldiers killed due to sub standard clothing and equipment is a lot more than the soldiers killed in border skirmishes. And the number of people killed by mob violence and lack of medicines and food is many times more than the ones killed by the Terrorists. Hope that helps put things in perspective. Jai Hind
Partha Jan 23, 2013 07:29am
good one mate.. mr abbas from pakistan(errr, sorry toronto) has just left the building ;)
Rao Jan 23, 2013 05:28am
Pakistanis are known to be hyperbolic about their achievements.